The Green Deal

[biffvernon]

Anyone tempted to go for the Green Deal?

If not, why not?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/tackling/green_deal/green_deal.aspx

http://www.green-deal-guide.co.uk/

 

[Penners]

I haven't really caught up yet with what The Green Deal means to the average householder. We recently had our loft insulated and a number of our windows are double-glazed. We also have a condensing boiler and a heavily insulated cylinder. But frankly I can't see a great deal else that we can economically do to the house to save further heat loss.

 

[worms]

The concept is interesting.

They need to make provision so that you can transfer the deal from one energy supplier to another rather than being locked in to a single supplier for ten years.

I would need to be convinced that there were advisors who could take into account the nature and construction of old buildings - the last energy advisor I saw suggested cavity wall insulation (for my rubble-stone building!) and uPVC DG windows.

I would need to get over my own (perhaps irrational) fears that this was just another buy-now, pay-later scheme.

 

[biffvernon]

I don't think the energy supplier transfer issue is important - that will be easy to fix.

Your other fears are much more important and not at all irrational. Finding 'accredited providers' who know anything about old buildings is going to be a challenge.

 

[Penners]

I don't think the energy supplier transfer issue is important - that will be easy to fix.

I agree.

Your other fears are much more important and not at all irrational. Finding 'accredited providers' who know anything about old buildings is going to be a challenge.

I agree.

 

[worms]

I don't think the energy supplier transfer issue is important - that will be easy to fix.

I agree.

I agree too, just pointing out an aspect of the current plan that needs sorting before it is finalised. And we can probably all think of things that are easy to fix that remain broke!

 

[JohnB]

I'm hoping to externally insulate my house, minimise my electricity consumption, and have my own source of firewood, so I can't imagine it would work for me, fortunately. It might be entertaining to see what a few advisers suggest :twisted: :wink:

 

[worms]

It might be entertaining to see what a few advisers suggest :twisted: :wink:

SInce they reckon £75-£250 for the advice, I might forego that particular entertainment!

 

[biffvernon]

Will the £75-£250 for the advice be payable upfront or bundled into the cost of the work and paid for along with the rest of the loan over the years through the electricity bills?

 

[tobydog]

Our electricity bill even during the middle of winter is just £50 a month and our heating is via oil. Our house leaks heat from all angles but, due to its structure, would take considerable cost and upheaval to sort out. How does this scheme and the loan work with oil companies or doesn't it?

 

[Flyfisher]

Anyone tempted to go for the Green Deal?

Not particularly.

If not, why not?

Because I'm a cynical old sod and I have a deep suspicion that the advisors and consultants who will advise on such things will simply work from a 'tick list' of items and have little or no expertise when it comes to old buildings. I'm certainly willing to be proved wrong but my gut feeling is that the whole thing will be like asking a damp-proofing company how to cure damp and being lead down the path of expensive and inappropriate works.

By way of example, I recently paid for an energy survey to be carried out on another house and the EPC contained 'cost effective' recommendations for improving the energy performance. These included:

Replacing the existing boiler with a new condensing boiler at a cost of up to £3500 to 'typically' save £118 per year. This was without any understanding of the temperature regime within the house and represented a ludicrous 30 year pay-back period.

Additional recommendations included solar PV at a cost of up to £20,000 to give a 'typical' saving of £219 per year - a nonsensical 91 year payback period - and a wind turbine costing up to £4000 for a 'typical' annual saving of £78 per year - a 51 year payback period.


The other reason why I'm somewhat hesitant is that I'm currently debt-free, which I happen to think is a good thing. So why would I want to burden myself with government-sponsored debt in order to finance such ludicrous recommendations?


My cynicism is not beyond conversion, but I will need rather better figures than the above, real, examples before taking the green deal more seriously.

 

[worms]

Will the £75-£250 for the advice be payable upfront or bundled into the cost of the work and paid for along with the rest of the loan over the years through the electricity bills?

I think I saw somewhere that it was intended to be upfront - Gov't reckoning it would cost no more than £75 (3 hours at £25/hour) but with industry reckoning up to £250 cost. I guess it may also depend on whether you use a single provider for the assessment and installation or use an independent assessor (and I know which route I'd rather go down!)

My cynicism is not beyond conversion, but I will need rather better figures than the above,

To be fair, part of the scheme is the "Golden Rule" that the annual savings must be demonstrably more than the annual repayments

I'm currently debt-free, which I happen to think is a good thing. So why would I want to burden myself with government-sponsored debt in order to finance such ludicrous recommendations?

I share your concern but I am having difficulty with this at a conceptual level. Long-term debt is a bad thing but "spend to save" can be a good thing. If I can bring forward the savings and gain a low interest means of spreading the cost across the savings period, then that might be OK. BUT, I Iwould probably invest more in the process, be forced to use a contractor rather than DIY and pay interest on the loan...

 

[biffvernon]

Additional recommendations included solar PV at a cost of up to £20,000 to give a 'typical' saving of £219 per year - a nonsensical 91 year payback period

Was he using the Australian check-list. You should have suggested putting the solar pv system on the south facing roof, not the north. (I'm getting an 11% return on capital from my pv system.)

But yes, I'm just as suspicious. I'm involved in an organisation that was meant to be promoting the Green Deal but the more I learn the more I think it is all very badly conceived.

 

[biffvernon]

My cynicism is not beyond conversion, but I will need rather better figures than the above,

To be fair, part of the scheme is the "Golden Rule" that the annual savings must be demonstrably more than the annual repayments

Worryingly, it has been pointed out that the wording from the government has been 'should' rather than 'must'.

 

[worms]

My cynicism is not beyond conversion, but I will need rather better figures than the above,

To be fair, part of the scheme is the "Golden Rule" that the annual savings must be demonstrably more than the annual repayments

Worryingly, it has been pointed out that the wording from the government has been 'should' rather than 'must'.

Ah!

- that will be easy to fix.

:wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm currently debt-free, which I happen to think is a good thing. So why would I want to burden myself with government-sponsored debt in order to finance such ludicrous recommendations?

I share your concern but I am having difficulty with this at a conceptual level. Long-term debt is a bad thing but "spend to save" can be a good thing. If I can bring forward the savings and gain a low interest means of spreading the cost across the savings period, then that might be OK. BUT, I Iwould probably invest more in the process, be forced to use a contractor rather than DIY and pay interest on the loan...

Yes, 'spend to save' can be a good thing - but only if the numbers make sense. And even if they do make sense, anything relying on projections over, say, 10 years or more must, I believe, be viewed with some suspicion because unforeseen circumstances add a big risk factor as well as, perhaps, limiting personal choices in the future due to the burden of long-term financial constraints. Simplistically, if someone encounters temporary financial difficulties five years down the line, it is relatively easy to save energy costs by not using as much, albeit at some personal discomfort perhaps, but debt repayments are far harder to manage.

 

[Flyfisher]

Additional recommendations included solar PV at a cost of up to £20,000 to give a 'typical' saving of £219 per year - a nonsensical 91 year payback period

Was he using the Australian check-list. You should have suggested putting the solar pv system on the south facing roof, not the north. (I'm getting an 11% return on capital from my pv system.)

But yes, I'm just as suspicious. I'm involved in an organisation that was meant to be promoting the Green Deal but the more I learn the more I think it is all very badly conceived.

I share your suspicion. I wasn't suggesting those EPC figures were sensible but mentioned them as an example of the sorts of nonsense coming out of a previous but now compulsory government scheme, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence for future schemes.

I would dearly like the green deal to be successful but I am rather concerned about how government defines success. I suspect that success may be measured by the number of new jobs created in advising and consulting and the economic boost created by millions of homeowners spending billions of pounds on works that will have little or no real, long- term environmental benefit.

And in the context of historic properties, works that may cause irreparable harm to the buildings themselves.

 

[Bayliss]

Been waiting to read of more detail about this scheme, thanks for links. Not at all sure now as to whether I really want to involve myself in thousands of pounds of 'debt' or just move.

 

[LadyArowana]

I wonder what people will do with the leftover money after debt repayments have been made ( assuming that there was a net gain ) ? a nice budget carrier flight somewhere and some new polyester clothes maybe ?