The General Election Thread

[DaveBrigg]

But these people are being paid out of public funds so how can they really support businesses? it's illusory... It's the private sector that creates the wealth needed to pay for the public sector. Government doesn't have any money, it uses taxpayers money... It's in everyone's interest to have a vibrant, successful and growing private sector doing stuff that actually makes money instead of just spending and/or redistributing it.

You'll be glad to hear that in April British manufacturing grew at its fastest rate since the mid 90's. But the assessment above is wrong on several points.
I get paid out of public funds. If Cameron gets his way, at best we'll be over £1 000 a year worse off, at worst I'll be unemployed. We've already started to look for savings:
1. Stop getting the car serviced. That's £200 a year less for the garage in the next village, run by one man and his son.
2. Cancel swimming lessons. £150 saved, but the local leisure centre has already cut back on classes as numbers have fallen.
3. Stop using a window cleaner. He is a one man business, and will lose £60 a year (he only comes here 4 times a year)
4. Fewer visits to the farm park and meals at the pub, both family businesses that rely on local support. The loss of just my business is unlikely to tip them over the edge, but if many others follow suit, some of these businesses will close. That's more unemployed, and the vicious circle continues. Being told that the loss of income is 'illusory' is unlikely to bring them much comfort.

Aside from manufacturing and agriculture, how does the private sector create wealth? It just takes money and redistributes it. The man who rendered our house worked in the private sector, but he had no 'money' of his own. He took mine at the end of the job and redistributed it. He didn't create any more money than existed before, it just moved from one bank account to another. If I buy a loaf of bread, the shop has not created wealth. It has just taken my money, kept some, and redistributed the rest to its supplier. We all pay taxes, so eventually most of it filters back to the government, ready to be redistributed again. If I change jobs and work in private education, I am no more creating wealth than if I work for the state. More money changes hands, but at the end of the day no new money has been created.

spend and get the economy growing again - oh, sorry, it's been tried and we've run out of money funding it because we can't afford it!

Savage cuts? oh, sorry, they are being tried at the moment in Greece and Ireland. Irish unemployment has now reached 12.6% and they are still in recession. They are in worse debt, and their economy is still not growing.

 

[DaveBrigg]

...the public sector, how easy a life they have, how much they moan, it's about time they were brought into the real world...

If you see a blue flashing light, that's the public sector.
The people dying in Afghanistan, they're public sector.
The people who keep our borders secure? Public sector.
Those who work with violent inmates - public sector.
The people who stitch up drunks at 1 a.m. on a Saturday night, they're public sector.
Those responsible for monitoring workplace safety - public sector
Supporting abused children or disturbed teenagers? - a mainly public sector job
Most of us were brought into this world by a public sector worker, and will be taken to our last resting place by one too.

I'm sure that most of these people feel that they are working in a world just as real as anyone else's. How many of them will be sacked to pay for Cameron's £6 billion tax cut for his multi-millionaire friends?

 

[biffvernon]

>5. Brings back our manufacturing base where we actually make something and sell it for a profit...

Nations that do more manufacturing than the UK?
USA, Japan, China, Germany.

Nations that do more manufacturing than the UK per capita?
None

 

[FamilyWiggs]

I'm sure that most of these people feel that they are working in a world just as real as anyone else's. How many of them will be sacked to pay for Cameron's £6 billion tax cut for his multi-millionaire friends?

Yawn. Raising the IHT threshold is not a tax cut for 3000 multi-millionaire friends. It takes 2 million or so relatively ordinary families out of this tax. It encourages (and yes, damn it, rewards)relatively ordinary families with homes worth £325k or more for playing by the rules, working and saving. it enables them to pass onto their offspring an asset to give them an independent start/leg-up in life. House price "income" will still be taxed through stamp duty and CGT on second and subseuqent homes

Like all taxes it isn't perfect and has its peculiarities - yes, it will also reward those who probably won't notice the benefit because they are rich enough already.

But as a message to society, it says if you work hard, save hard, play by the rules and put away a nest-egg for your family, then the government will encourage that and treat you fairly. I think that is a positive motivator that rewards the kind of responsible behaviour we need.

Remember, it is part of a balanced tax package, not an isolated measure. There are plenty of other redistributive tax changes aimed squarely at the poorer and more needy.

Can the left-leaning on here please take heads out of the sand and stop pretending that we can avoid any impact on the public sector? We have a £160bn budget deficit to fill. As a public servant I am very aware that a) Labour have created more than another million of us; b) we can't afford the public sector we now have; c) that the "economy" is not the same as the public sector, no matter how many times Brown tries to conflate the two, and d) there will have to be significant and painful public spending cuts to balance the personal and private sector tax increase needed to fill the deficit.

 

[Nigel Watts]

The key question is what should one wear to vote?

As a quasi civil servant who has to go to work after voting I of course have to remain impartial so I will be wearing something very discreet: blue tie, blue cufflinks, blue braces and a blue handkerchief in my top pocket. No one will guess.

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

It is too bitterly cold in this house to dress and undress, so unfortunately I rolled up wearing what I'd slept in, a positive tryptich of pink, blue and green jumpers.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Lol! at Nigel and Joce!

Joce, we run an electric fan in our bathroom to make it really warm for those awkward getting naked moments. It is far greener than flicking the central heating on and it can get toasty hot in a few minutes. The flex goes under the door and plugs in outside but it is still dangerous I suppose.

Well, 3 of the voters in this house are in Belfast and I have no idea if they will get back.
One is in Middlesbrough and will be voting there
Leaving only me.

 

[wobs]

Aside from manufacturing and agriculture, how does the private sector create wealth? It just takes money and redistributes it.

Manufucturing accounts for a sizeable portion of the UK's GDP, but other sectors also create wealth in this country. Its suprising how much the creative sector (culture etc) accounts for the country's GDP (about 10% of the UK's GDP I think). We have about the biggest cultural industry per head of population in the world.

The finance sector used to account for one of the biggest parts of the UK's GDP, but I wouldn't want to speculate on what they are now. I wouldn't want to speculate on anything about the finance sector.

The point is though that the manufacturing, extraction industries, agricultural, creative, and other sectors create wealth by adding value and selling it on. Can the same be said about the public sector?

Someone who works in the public sector may go out and buy others' services, but surely that money is just going round in circles. I maybe missing something in that idea.

 

[Flyfisher]

Re: DaveBriggs: regardless of ideology, the reality is that it's not sustainable to spend more than we earn. Of course it's 'good' to have more and better public services to make all our lives easier but if we simply can't afford it then it becomes fantasy. Yes, we can get away with it for a while and we can borrow money to make up the cashflow shortfall (just like families can build up huge credit card bills while living beyond their fundamental means), but it's not a sustainable strategy.

If you believe Cameron is going to make you £1000 per year worse off, why not just borrow the extra £1000 in order to 'protect' your spending habits, like Brown is proposing to do, and hope that things will somehow improve.

Doesn't sound like a great idea does it? Isn't it why we're in an economic mess in the first place, i.e. toxic debt from people borrowing against assumed future increase in property values? It ends in tears and the crying starts on Friday - regardless of the outcome of the general election.

As for private vs public sectors, I think FW and wobs have already given the answers.

Joce, we run an electric fan in our bathroom to make it really warm for those awkward getting naked moments. It is far greener than flicking the central heating on and it can get toasty hot in a few minutes. The flex goes under the door and plugs in outside but it is still dangerous I suppose.

I hope your fan-heater is powered via an RCD 'marm.

We have a wall-mounted electric fan-heater specifically designed for bathrooms, complete with integral timer. As you rightly say, greener than heating the entire house and a good incentive to get out of bed on a winter's day before the timer clicks off!

 

[LadyArowana]

Lol! at Nigel and Joce!

Joce, we run an electric fan in our bathroom to make it really warm for those awkward getting naked moments. It is far greener than flicking the central heating on and it can get toasty hot in a few minutes. The flex goes under the door and plugs in outside but it is still dangerous I suppose.

I hope you aren't running it off a coiled up extension lead..... and you might want to keep an eye on any family members who take out life insurance on you. Not that I am a suspicious type of person of course :shock:

 

[Feltwell]

. The flex goes under the door and plugs in outside but it is still dangerous I suppose.

Yes! RCD or not, that is dangerous - less so with an RCD but it doesn't elimnate risk. You have a fan heater there that presumably has a switch on it that is not designed to be used by wet hands, neither is the heater itself designed to be picked up by wet hands. Could it get splashed? Could a towel be dropped on it? That could cause a fire quite easily. You might be careful, but are all your family & visitors?

Please get a proper bathroom heater.

And whilst I'm in nagging mode, JOCE - Have you got smoke alarms yet?????

 

[LadyArowana]

And whilst I'm in nagging mode, JOCE - Have you got smoke alarms yet?????

Yes, she has :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Schoolmarm]

It is the single most dangerous item being used in our house.

It is freestanding and too near the door so gets kicked about. It is plugged into an extension outside that is plugged into.......................a wall socket DANGLING OFF THE WALL that you can touch ALL of the inside.

Every person has been threatened and made to promise not to touch anything, ever. I am hoping husband gets the death shock as he could easily fix it all but is "too busy" working or building and flying about 13 remote control helicopters.
There are no words which would adequately describe my contempt for him.


In fact I am going to get an electrician in. Trouble is he would probably disconnect us from the grid.

 

[LadyArowana]

I am hoping husband gets the death shock as he could easily fix it all but is "too busy" working or building and flying about 13 remote control helicopters.
There are no words which would adequately describe my contempt for him.

Might be easiest to cure all the problems at once, a nice insurance policy should leave plenty for the paid electrican. :twisted: ( only :lol: of course ) I'm sure he is a sweetheart really.

 

[Feltwell]

At least screw the socket back on the wall and get a plug-in RCD adaptor (Focus, B&Q, Homebase, Sainsburys, Screwfix all definitely sell them - :wink: - others stores are available etc etc...) - if your electrics are generally old I presume your consumer unit / fuse box is not RCD protected.

Lowers the risk but still not a proper solution.

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, 'marm. (((((((())))))))) These husbands.

And I have to spill the beans on lovely Lady A, who was so concerned for me that she sent a smoke alarm by post. So, yes, I now have two. (and Chris still saying that choosing and rigging up smoke alarms for all the rooms is high on his very long list of things to do.)

We did the whole getting ready by electric fire thing in the winter - but in the bedroom. There isn't a working socket near the bathroom, and I don't want an extension lead trailing across the hall.

I find it hard to motivate myself to get dressed (who will see me?) but usually by round about midday I'm brave enough to strip in the breakfast room and put on clothes that have gently heated on the Rayburn.

 

[Schoolmarm]

He truly isn't a sweetheart :lol: :lol:


I tried to screw it back on the wall but some idiot has left out the back box. It is just a plastic socket front fixed somehow, or was, to a square hole chipped in the plaster.
No RCDs. Just old fashioned fusewire.


Joce, it is worth it honestly, to run an extension out to get your bathroom toasty warm. Truly, it is bliss. And if you tip your shoes up carefully you can heat the insides up ready to put on.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Next you will be suggesting I actually immerse my entire body in water. Outlandish! :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

. . . . or building and flying about 13 remote control helicopters.

I can't quite see the problem . . . boys need their toys you know. (wow, 13 - I've always hankered after just one!).

I do agree with Feltwell though - get one off those plug-in RCD thingies to run the fan heater (careful how you plug it in though :shock: ). Still not ideal, but certainly safer. I'd give some thought to wrapping some insulating tape around the dangling socket as well. Again, not ideal but better than bare socket wiring - for which a plug-in RCD will offer no protection, nor will a bit of 30A fusewire in your consumer unit.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Joce, only bit by bit and never all at once like a shower :shock: or bath :shock:


And a complete refurb of the workshop to make it suitable for helicopter jobs rather than the petrol RC cars previously. He has helis from hand sized to half his body size. I hate the way it has to be full obsession or nothing at all.
Can't quite tell, but I think he is a member of two clubs and has to spend more time at each than any other club member.


I never touch the dangerous wall plug and turned off all the mains (two switches) to plug the extension in originally. I will get an RCD that is a very good idea.
I did once try and tape/glue the socket plate to the wall to stop dogs cats and people accidentally touching it but it fell off.