Telly?

[JoceAndChris]

The middle classes are defined by a need to be upwardly mobile, and show themselves off as what they perceive to be more upper class, by having new and posh furniture in their homes. Of course the new middle classes had/have the money to do this!
I'm sure its not quite as simple as that, and apologies to Kate Fox if I read her wrong, but its an interesting thought.......

I think it's a very perceptive point. But, oh, to have inherited a great houseful of antiques!

Nigel- your book sounds fascinating.

"On the whole gentlemen's houses are not very comfortable places to live in by comparison with what those lower down the social scale are permitted to enjoy."

Wittily put, and it might be true of now in Britain, (not denying that some people really do live in abject poverty, but it is a welfare state) but can't really be true of the past?

The English class system is indeed deeply fascinating and I often think about how my life would have been had I been born in 1873 in that labourer's cottage in Gloucestershire, or the miner's cottage in the North-East, rather than 1973, in a supposedly less class riddled Britain (I think it's all very markedly there, but has gone underground a bit more).

Most of the time I just feel thankful to exist at all, especially when I consider how my wily grandfathers, fighting in the trenches of the First World War, somehow survived and came back to create my Mum and Dad!

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I seem to remember that my Father gave me a copy 'The English Gentlemans Daughter', probably wishful thinking on his part :wink:

 

[Nigel Watts]

in a supposedly less class riddled Britain (I think it's all very markedly there, but has gone underground a bit more).

I have long since become Londonised, and now live in an environment where your social origin is less important than your (usually professional) achievements. This has the illusion of being class free, but of course it is not - those who are able to live in nice houses in places like Islington and educate their kids at the best private schools are a highly self selected bunch - articulate, well educated and ambitious (and often pretty unbearable as a consequence) and I have no idea who lives in the Council flats which overlook my garden, or what their lives must be like. The only time anything approaching a conversation occurs is when they come to the door trick or treating, or if there is some disaster, such as when a tree fell over a few years ago, crushing some cars. I dont look down on them, its just that the opportunity for any kind of social intercourse never arises.

Dwellers of Market towns and the more remote shires probably have a different experience. I was brought up in such a town, and saw the fringes of county society, neither of which I liked much, but I suspect people of different classes there would talk to each other more than in London.

I am getting too serious. Back to a quote from The English Gentleman which made me chortle:

"Nor is the gentleman fluent with such terms of endearment as 'Darling', 'Sweetheart', or 'My gorgeous little Passion Flower'. In moments of great affection he may refer to his wife as a 'good old bag' or a 'dear old faggot' and, if she should chance to hear rhe remark, she will blush with pleasure and feel warm for the rest of the day."

 

[Flyfisher]

Most of the time I just feel thankful to exist at all, especially when I consider how my wily grandfathers, fighting in the trenches of the First World War, somehow survived and came back to create my Mum and Dad!

Dawkins' pointed out that everyone of us are the descendants of a tiny élite of successful ancestors, not a single one of which died in infancy or was killed by a predator, enemy, accident or disease before managing to find a partner, reproduce and nurture said offspring to the point of being able to survive and carry on the unbroken chain of descent leading of each of us. Millions of our ancestors’ contemporaries failed in all these respects, but not a single, solitary one of our own ancestors failed in any of them.

Fairly obvious when you think about it but quite humbling, I think, nevertheless.

Television is a great servant but a terrible master!

Very well put.

I think my first 18 months here has been characterised by a kind of "it's all got to be perfect, and like things were in 1800" attitude;

It's all a matter of personal preference of course, but I suspect that basic premise is something of an oxymoron for most of us. We have vastly more choice when it comes to our living environment and general lifestyle; the trick is to pick and choose to our own particular hearts' content.

 

[Penners]

The English class system is indeed deeply fascinating

Yes, but let's not kid ourselves that a class system is unique to this country. In my experience, it exists in everywhere, the only variables being the definitions of who is "superior" to whom.

Yet somehow we British seem to have got saddled with the reputation of being uniquely cursed with a class system. Indeed, we even believe this reputation ourselves.

In all of my travels through other countries (and I've visited a fair few) I have yet to encounter a truly egalitarian society.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0DUsGSMwZY&feature=related

 

[Flyfisher]

I've always had trouble understanding 'egalitarian'. Does it mean everyone has equal rights to do as they wish or a more active system that actively maintains equality?

I suspect the ideal starts out as the former but as some people become more 'successful' than others, which is then perceived as being 'unfair', so factions arise to try to either protect the 'unfairness' or to redistribute the 'success' more evenly. But we'd better not start a sociology thread or it'll be never-ending.

I agree about the widespread reputation of the 'British Class System' though. I presume it's widespread because of our colonial history and is perpetuated today by our monarchy, non-elected House of Lords, the honours systems and our general pomp and ceremony.

 

[Penners]

I've always had trouble understanding 'egalitarian'. Does it mean everyone has equal rights to do as they wish or a more active system that actively maintains equality?

I was using the word to describe a (fictional) society in which people all regard each other as equals.

But of course this doesn't, and will never, exist. I can never imagine a society in which, for example, a corporation boss regards his toilet cleaner as his social equal.

 

[Flyfisher]

Agreed . . . even though they might well have been born into almost identical circumstances and had identical schooling. Tricky stuff, equality.

 

[yamin]

Agreed . . . even though they might well have been born into almost identical circumstances and had identical schooling. Tricky stuff, equality.

Here's a tricky question, and I will answer it myself first. Do you feel that you would have been so successful (whatever that means to you) had you not been born to the privelege (by which I mean good education etc, not silver spoons) that many of us were born to? I am somewhat ashamed to admit that had I not been born to a happy, priveleged (as above) home, with a gentle expectation that I would use my education, get a degree etc etc, I am not sure I would have ended up with the job and success that I did. To put it bluntly, if I'd been born on a sink estate I'm not sure I would ever have made it out - I have great admiration for people who forge a totally different path from their parents, often against expectation, sometimes against parents wishes! You have your obvious examples - your Alan Sugars, your Gordon Ramsays and so on, but I think there are many others out there......in 'times of old' this was a rarer thing to happen I think, so social strata was less blurred than it can be now.

I think I strayed into general irrelevant musings there, but I'm posting anyway!

On a lighter note

Though you will notice that where Abi lives, inflamed by the lewd and licentious atmosphere of the Bard's theatre, the entertainment is profoundly less wholesome than the innocent pursuits of Lincolnshire.

Chance would be a fine thing!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[judrop]

Goodness me, WHAT an interesting topic this has turned into, from an innocent question about T V( :wink: ) to the social condition of human kind ! I believe that we are "conditioned " by society ( whatever THAT is ) to conform and stay in our slots, my mother gave me a wonderful ego booster , she told me from an early age that : " You are at least as good , ( and probably better ) than anyone you might have dealings with " ! She also told me that the true sign of breeding was to be able to communicate with anyone without making them feel in any way unworthy, or indeed without feeling that about oneself. All I can say is it has worked for me, and , I hope , my children. Just a thought Ju X

 

[Matt Green]

Here's a tricky question, and I will answer it myself first. Do you feel that you would have been so successful (whatever that means to you) had you not been born to the privelege (by which I mean good education etc, not silver spoons) that many of us were born to?

I'm the son of a Wycombe chairmaker who got his City and Guilds in chairmaking at the same college as I got my PhD in wood science. I got a computer generated certificate for 20K words that few people have read: he got an engraved solid bronze medallion for being best at making chairs that year.

So who's the most successful? The guy with the letters surrounding his name or the guy that made it possible for that to happen? Ask one and he'll tell you it's the other.

M.

 

[Flyfisher]

The entrepreneur example of success-against-the-odds is, I suspect, just the tip of life's iceberg of luck. So-called 'self-made' people will be able to recount the ambitions they had, how they went about things, the great ideas they had and all the hard work they put in to achieve their success. And I've no reason to doubt any of it. But I feel sure that for every well-known example there will be thousands of similar stories where the same basic ambition, ideas and hard work came to nought because of those twists of fate we tend to call luck. I guess that's where the old adage about making one's own luck comes from.

I can certainly think back to many decisions I've made that were probably pivotal in my life and I'm sure everyone else can too. The same applies to events that have affected me but were not under my control. Whether those decisions and events were the root of my 'success' or my 'failure' can, of course, never be known - except, perhaps, in parallel universes. :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

So who's the most successful?

Such a question is almost impossible to answer because the judging criteria are too subjective.

I would venture that a successful person is one who manages to live their life in exactly the way they wish.

 

[DaveBrigg]

She also told me that the true sign of breeding was to be able to communicate with anyone without making them feel in any way unworthy, or indeed without feeling that about oneself.

A thought shared by Kipling in 'If'.

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
From my experience in teaching, youngsters these days come to school knowing little about the old class system. Any reading of 'Jane Eyre' or 'A Christmas Carol' or 'An Inspector Calls' has to include a description of the various unspoken rules regarding class, and the responsibilities and privileges that went with it. However, they do know very clearly that some pupils are not like others, and which is 'their' group. And we are a comprehensive; few of our pupils realise that there is another tier of education unlike anything they will experience.
Schools and universities are trying to encourage able pupils from less privileged backgrounds to break the mould, but it is not an easy task. One of the key guides to academic performance, used to set school targets, is the number of pupils receiving free school meals. Another national organisation which sets exam targets for schools uses pupil postcodes, linked to insurance and estate agent records. A school which achieves a 60% pass rate for pupils in working class areas is judged to be performing better than one which gets the same figure for pupils in the leafy suburbs.

In response to Yamin's question, I agree with you. I was able to reach my chosen career because my parents (and a grant) helped with costs at uni. They could also afford to help me get started on the property ladder. A former pupil from a working class background, with whom I keep in touch, has recently qualified as a teacher the hard way. She had to work part-time whilst training, and a few years ago managed to buy her council flat on the third floor of a concrete jungle.

 

[Flyfisher]

Never let it be said that PPUK is afraid to tackle the big issues; TV for controlling the masses, class systems and now education.

Speaking as a beneficiary of a higher education and the full state-funded grant that used to go with it in the 1970s, I find it somewhat amazing that politicians seem to grumble that fewer people from 'poor' backgrounds going on to higher education today than they used to (I presume this is a percentage rather than an absolute numbers measurement). Surely it can't be beyond them to understand the inevitable consequences of introducing higher education tuition fees and eliminating grants in favour of student loans. :roll:

There's no doubt in my mind that young people today face a much tougher economic environment than I faced after graduation - and I don't just mean the recent recession issues, I'm thinking longer-term. And this is from someone who can remember paying 12%+ mortgage interest rates!

 

[yamin]

So who's the most successful?

Such a question is almost impossible to answer because the judging criteria are too subjective.

I would venture that a successful person is one who manages to live their life in exactly the way they wish.

Couldn't agree more FF, I guess for the purposes of this discussion I meant more what 'society' views as having made good. But you are so right, and its something we try to instill in our boys, if they CHOOSE to do a less obviously status job then thats fine if they are happy, our wish is that they don't just fall into it for lack of choice brought on by lack of effort. Now following that through in a world still obsessed by status is a challenge, but I hope we can.

judrop wrote:She also told me that the true sign of breeding was to be able to communicate with anyone without making them feel in any way unworthy, or indeed without feeling that about oneself.

This is so true. Hence my parents horror of the gated community of large houses, or the estate where there are only large detatched houses - it separates communitites even more, and encourages ignorance and prejudice on each side. Again though, which of us would choose a house, however nice, surrounded by an estate of challenging reputation. I still thinkmn it holds a bit in the countryside though - many villages are still a mix of the poor and rich, but I wonder if they are also the places where the feudal/forelock touching is also holding out!

 

[middi]

The most succesfull human beings can be classified as the ones that are able to be at peace with their own mind (especially at those occasions when they are alone).

 

[Nigel Watts]

London can be pretty mixed too. Our house is about 200 yards from the Holloway Road where shootings and stabbings periodically take place.

A year or two ago a teenage gang from the local flats used to hang out in the road adjacent to our garden, stealing cars and bikes. After witnessing the theft of a pizza delivery motorbike I confronted them and was threatened with a knife. No weapon was actually produced so I guessed it was a bluff, kept my cool and told the kid it would be very much in his interest to say within the law before walking away. The Pizza delivery man was so terrified he did not even want me to act as his witness. The gang seems to have moved on now. Perhaps they are now more interested in girls, or are in jail. As I said before, although they live right next to me I really know nothing of their lives.

My cousin, a well-heeled senior Guardian journalist married to a left wing NUT activist (they met when at Oxford - he became a teacher but is now an academic at the Institute of Education), has chosen to live more on the front line, in a house virtually surrounded by council flats in Stoke Newington and sent her kids to a really tough state school in Hackney. The daughter seemed to be able to take it but I am not sure it did much for her son. We went to a party there a year or so ago which was great fun, with guests from all strata of society, but I dont think I could live like that and am not prepared to risk sacrificing my children's happiness on the altar of my political prejudices.

 

[LadyArowana]

I rather like the Bhutanese idea.

"The concept of gross national happiness (GNH) is an attempt to define quality of life in more holistic and psychological terms than gross national product.

The term was coined in 1972 by Bhutan's former King Jigme Singye Wangchuck, who has opened up Bhutan to the age of modernization, soon after the demise of his father, King Jigme Dorji Wangchuk. It signaled his commitment to building an economy that would serve Bhutan's unique culture based on Buddhist spiritual values. Like many moral goals, it is somewhat easier to state than to define. Nonetheless, it serves as a unifying vision for Bhutan's five-year planning process and all the derived planning documents that guide the economic and development plans of the country.

While conventional development models stress economic growth as the ultimate objective, the concept of GNH claims to be based on the premise that true development of human society takes place when material and spiritual development occur side by side to complement and reinforce each other. The four pillars of GNH are the promotion of sustainable development, preservation and promotion of cultural values, conservation of the natural environment, and establishment of good governance."

London can be pretty mixed too. Our house is about 200 yards from the Holloway Road where shootings and stabbings periodically take place.

:shock: I had no idea the conservation officers in Islington were that strict.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Gracious - what fascinating posts to read. How eloquent and interesting you all are.

There is no doubt that the parents' provision of education and opportunities usually leads to what is generally perceived as career success. (I'm an anomaly, content, most of the time, to be a drunken layabout despite my education - I blame my genetic inheritance)

However, I do question whether it is right for bored, post-pubescent kids to be forced to stay at school and encouraged into higher education. My father left school at 14, spent 4 years painting at Horton Court, and then joined the RAF. You couldn't meet a sweeter, well-educated (by life), more gentle person.

I wish there was greater respect for, and interest in, traditional craftmanship and that this was pushed at school as much as a hedonistic 3 year stint at Bangor reading something like Applied Terrestrial Marine Ecology (now Biff will pop up and say that's a brilliant course :wink

I also think that the job of waste collection, etc, is a great deal more useful than many of the vague business jobs which are considerably better paid. I currently have no idea what Chris does. I can't get my head round the banking systems at all. And yet his job typically commands more respect than say the clearly indispensible job of road-mender. There is a huge injustice right at the heart of our society- bring back the Bolsheviks at once!