Tax relief on sustainability

[wobs]

Wishful thinking I'm afraid. A dark still night would be a problem.

Solar power WOULD cover this peak in the summer of course, but as winter closes in Wind and Wave power only get better and dont stop as the sun goes down.
But we also tend to turn the heating on, and most households degrade high value heat into low value heat for heating without making any effort to use that high value heat for electricity generation. This is simply stupid. Once again we have a prime resource right where (and when) the electricity is needed yet we smash atoms up at the other end of the country instead...

George

So you want to rely on gas to provide the back up when its dark and still, hoping it will provide enough power. Did you watch Panorama the other week?

Personally I'd like to see a huge increase in biogas plants on this country as well, as we have the waste streams to power them, but they won't provide much in the way of electricity, and will be far better providing heat energy for specific applications.

 

[NT]

..... Vast resources have been committed to solar pv, despite it being a particularly unpromising option...

I would take issue with the claim that "vast resources" have been committed. Sure Nasa spent a bit in the early days, but since then it has been virtually non-existant and compared to Nuclear it wouldnt even register.

Google is free.

I really dont understand why you are so closed minded about Solar PV. It is a technology that has already proved itself in a whole range of applications.

Ha. have you ever checked the price per watt? Do you understand the lower value of intermittent generation? Do you understand the society-wide consequences of spending billions on new solar plants? Its not even close to being workable.

Prices of Solar cells are falling steadily and have been for 30 years (see video linked previously).
20 year ago they were ONLY of any practical use for satellites, with an unlimited budget and un-interrupted sunshine.
10 years ago they had carved out a few more niche applications and started to provide some domestic power.
NOW, we have half the new houses in Japan being built with arrays and widespread use in countries like Germany for domestic power.

The rate of price drop is accelerating (with respect to time) and is on course with respect to volume of sales.

What makes you think that this wont continue?

Of course it will continue. Maybe in another 50-100 years it'll become a serious option.


Safety nonsense snipped.


NT

 

[gsport george]

....I'm not sure if you realise or not, but the odds of new techs making it from research attemtps to mass deployable technology are extremely small....

In the US they are building the plants right now. Nano Solar plan to make 250MW of capacity in 2007 and 450MW each year after that. Using NON silicon based technology....

Australia is going ahead with their solar tower...

Numerous companies are working on Stirling engines and other solutions for CHP.

The Portugeese are buying a whole raft of Pelamis devices from us.


The rest of the world is doing it, it's just us getting left behind...

 

[gsport george]

So you want to rely on gas to provide the back up when its dark and still, hoping it will provide enough power. Did you watch Panorama the other week?

It doesnt have to be Gas.

As long as we are heating our homes by burning things (be it gas or oil or coal or wood) we might as well have the high value heat as electricity.

Are YOU suggesting that we all use electricity for heating?!?!?!?

 

[gsport george]

Ha. have you ever checked the price per watt? Do you understand the lower value of intermittent generation? Do you understand the society-wide consequences of spending billions on new solar plants? Its not even close to being workable.

Prices of Solar cells are falling steadily and have been for 30 years (see video linked previously).
20 year ago they were ONLY of any practical use for satellites, with an unlimited budget and un-interrupted sunshine.
10 years ago they had carved out a few more niche applications and started to provide some domestic power.
NOW, we have half the new houses in Japan being built with arrays and widespread use in countries like Germany for domestic power.

The rate of price drop is accelerating (with respect to time) and is on course with respect to volume of sales.

What makes you think that this wont continue?

Of course it will continue. Maybe in another 50-100 years it'll become a serious option.


Safety nonsense snipped.


NT

Of course I have. I linked to it and showed hard figures.

2years ago I bought two flat screen LCD displays for my computer. Cost was around £500 each.... today I could buy better ones for less than half that.

Solar PV is RAPIDLY increasing it's volumes of production and as with any industry costs are coming down in line even though we have an all time high price for polysilicon.

Now look at Solar Panels and you can SEE the prices coming down fast. As prices drop and volumes increase, margins drop too and the price improvements are compounded....

George

 

[biffvernon]

The rest of the world is doing it, it's just us getting left behind...

We are at least rearranging the chairs:
TOD:Europe

 

[wobs]

So you want to rely on gas to provide the back up when its dark and still, hoping it will provide enough power. Did you watch Panorama the other week?

It doesnt have to be Gas.

As long as we are heating our homes by burning things (be it gas or oil or coal or wood) we might as well have the high value heat as electricity.

Are YOU suggesting that we all use electricity for heating?!?!?!?

I'm simply saying we need to increase our nuclear power for generating electricity many fold. Talk of solar PV and wind turbines and other sources are not going to remove the need for this owing to their intermittency. Neither will geothermal, CHP, or biomass, as there isn't the potential capacity there. CHP is only viable with a year round customer for its energy, so district domestic heating ain't going to cut it. The only domestic district heating you really want is from incineration.

I have solar suppliers on short cuts, which I occassionally check out, along with wind turbine and solar heating, so I do have a handle on the costs.

If the US and Australia are investing in solar... good for them, they have the sun for it. We don't get enough sun to make it as worth while. Sure you can get some energy from it, but not as much as these guys.

The point is though, we need a stable supply, and given the geography and climate we have, nuclear is the only large scale option we have that will run 24/7, one that will keep the lights on when the wind drops, when its night, and when the Russians get into a sulk.

Again, I'll say it: I'm not against wind and solar. When ever I see a solar panel on a roof, I think "good for them", despite the horrendous energy cost compared to nuclear :wink: .

As for alternative heating, well I do burn wood etc, but many people I know can't. Many people live in apartments, modern houses, etc that rely on gas. Micro generation has its niches, but powering large sections of domestic housing - it's just not up to the job. Nuclear would be cheapskate in comparison. If you doubt this, see France.

Solar: Again, I'll say it. Its a great idea, and the more the price comes down the better, but how many houses have a South facing roof? How many people will die fitting panels to millions of roofs throughout the country? My guess is that more people would die fitting solar panels to every roof in the UK than would be working in the equivilent energy generation of nuclear plants in this country. Especially given the level of regulation that the industry works under.

Wind: Guess its already been mentioned how the Windsave system is not that good at payback. But nationwide, the commercial windfarms run at about 24% capacity, so you would have to have gross over capacity, and huge back up systems to compensate. The areas of high population eg. london, Birmingham, Leeds etc, don't get that much wind, and the amount of energy that windfarms produce make long distance transfers less viable. And this is a major issue, some of the best renewable energy is not near large centres of population. Look at wind maps, and wave energy studies, and tidal energy. The only one that comes out favourably is tidal, as Bristol is near a huge potential there.

Will that negate the need for nuclear? No.

Statements about the total energy that hits the UK is fine, but not that meaningful if the energy isn't dense enough. If collecting it becomes so costly that the infrastructure to collect and distribute it become too expensive, both in terms of money and energy. This is one of the major drawbacks with these systems.

As for wave energy. Yes I'm aware of what happened in the 80s. But there are systems been built today that could provide some answers, but again, they'll be intermittent, so again, their scope is limited. Especially given their ideal locations.

Pump storage: We have some, but not many opportunities near london, Birmingham, etc.

For reading on nuclear here:
http://www.nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/FullSummary
- An Aussie University study on nuclear. Interesting read.

A blog by some workers in the industry:
http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/
-These guys are very active in making the pro-nuclear case in the blogosphere, and while they are industry employees and make their livings on industry money you can really tell that they're also passionate about the technology.

Some good dsicussions on nuclear energy:
http://www.freedomforfission.org.uk/index.html
- Essentially some guys from the Bad Astronomy forums decided to make a site to debunk the myths and distortions surrounding nuclear energy.

Go out and read up.

 

[NT]

....I'm not sure if you realise or not, but the odds of new techs making it from research attemtps to mass deployable technology are extremely small....

In the US they are building the plants right now. Nano Solar plan to make 250MW of capacity in 2007 and 450MW each year after that. Using NON silicon based technology....

Australia is going ahead with their solar tower...

Numerous companies are working on Stirling engines and other solutions for CHP.

The Portugeese are buying a whole raft of Pelamis devices from us.


The rest of the world is doing it, it's just us getting left behind...

Research has little to do with mass deployment here and now. Research techs are for the future only, in the minority of cases that make it. For the here and now options, all the above are non starters. I dont understand why you dont appear to understand that.


NT

 

[NT]

Ha. have you ever checked the price per watt? Do you understand the lower value of intermittent generation? Do you understand the society-wide consequences of spending billions on new solar plants? Its not even close to being workable.

Prices of Solar cells are falling steadily and have been for 30 years (see video linked previously).
20 year ago they were ONLY of any practical use for satellites, with an unlimited budget and un-interrupted sunshine.
10 years ago they had carved out a few more niche applications and started to provide some domestic power.
NOW, we have half the new houses in Japan being built with arrays and widespread use in countries like Germany for domestic power.

The rate of price drop is accelerating (with respect to time) and is on course with respect to volume of sales.

What makes you think that this wont continue?

Of course it will continue. Maybe in another 50-100 years it'll become a serious option.


Safety nonsense snipped.


NT

Of course I have. I linked to it and showed hard figures.

2years ago I bought two flat screen LCD displays for my computer. Cost was around £500 each.... today I could buy better ones for less than half that.

Solar PV is RAPIDLY increasing it's volumes of production and as with any industry costs are coming down in line even though we have an all time high price for polysilicon.

Now look at Solar Panels and you can SEE the prices coming down fast. As prices drop and volumes increase, margins drop too and the price improvements are compounded....

George

I'm not sure why youre still trying to convince me or others that prices are falling when I've already agreed with that. But that doesnt make it a mass deployable option, not by a long way.


NT

 

[Penners]

I wonder how many megawatts have been expended on this thread! :wink:

 

[gsport george]

...Research has little to do with mass deployment here and now. Research techs are for the future only, in the minority of cases that make it. For the here and now options, all the above are non starters. I dont understand why you dont appear to understand that.

And I dont understand why you continue to call Nano Solar "research".
They are building a huge PRODUCTION facility near San Fransisco AS WE SPEAK....

 

[NT]

...Research has little to do with mass deployment here and now. Research techs are for the future only, in the minority of cases that make it. For the here and now options, all the above are non starters. I dont understand why you dont appear to understand that.

And I dont understand why you continue to call Nano Solar "research".
They are building a huge PRODUCTION facility near San Fransisco AS WE SPEAK....

ask yourself: have we had a nanosolar plant operating long term, with all figures and issues known, or is it still experimental? Can you see the difference?


NT

 

[NT]

I wonder how many megawatts have been expended on this thread! :wink:

why not check the logs...
http://www.ominous-valve.com/tour.html


NT

 

[Penners]

We've had that one from you before, NT. It's great!

 

[gsport george]

.....ask yourself: have we had a nanosolar plant operating long term, with all figures and issues known, or is it still experimental? Can you see the difference?


NT

This is NOT a government project, like Nuclear was, promissing the moon (when they knew they couldnt achieve it) to get public money....
When they say next year I think that it is pretty reasonable to expect no more than a few months delay at most.
They have produced plenty of units on smaller scale equipment, this is simply a scaling up of the process using well known and understood technology.
Private investors do not generally "experiment" with these things...

Do you see the difference?

George

 

[NT]

.....ask yourself: have we had a nanosolar plant operating long term, with all figures and issues known, or is it still experimental? Can you see the difference?

This is NOT a government project, like Nuclear was, promissing the moon (when they knew they couldnt achieve it) to get public money....
When they say next year I think that it is pretty reasonable to expect no more than a few months delay at most.
They have produced plenty of units on smaller scale equipment, this is simply a scaling up of the process using well known and understood technology.
Private investors do not generally "experiment" with these things...

Do you see the difference?

George

So not something that has ever been done on this scale then.

To be frank George, recommending a nationwide energy program based on tech that has never even been applied on the required scale, nor any report on the success or otherwise of such endeavours, would be a bit foolish.


NT

 

[NT]

I hope it succeeds, and all the reports on it are favourable, and its so good we can even deploy it en masse. But we're a fair number of years from that point, and the chance of reaching it at all isnt particularly good.


NT

 

[NT]

We've had that one from you before, NT. It's great!

Hope the newer members enjoy it too. I only wish they had more there.


NT

 

[biffvernon]

In Spain it's not the carrot of tax relief but the big stick:

Solar panels are now compulsory on all new and renovated buildings in Spain as part of the country’s efforts to bring its building rules up to date and curb growing demand for energy, ministers said on Monday.
This means new homes have to be equipped with solar panels to provide between 30 and 70 percent of their hot water, depending on where the building is located and on its expected water usage.

New non-residential buildings, such as shopping centers and hospitals, now have to have photovoltaic panels to generate a proportion of their electricity.

 

[NT]

In Spain it's not the carrot of tax relief but the big stick:

Solar panels are now compulsory on all new and renovated buildings in Spain as part of the country’s efforts to bring its building rules up to date and curb growing demand for energy, ministers said on Monday.
This means new homes have to be equipped with solar panels to provide between 30 and 70 percent of their hot water, depending on where the building is located and on its expected water usage.

New non-residential buildings, such as shopping centers and hospitals, now have to have photovoltaic panels to generate a proportion of their electricity.

Wonderful, enforced non-greenness and impoverishment. Guess why I'm not pro-nannying.

To explain myself, solar pv generation of electricity for mains connected buildings is just folly. The excessive costs impoverish people, and take money away from more serious measures that could be used to cut energy consumption an order of magnitude further than any pv panels.

As ever, its the the C grade students that rule the world.


NT