Stripping exterior render

[Konrad Fischer]

"they don't and didn't allow their pets to pee indside their homes to such an extent that years or centuries later it would have a remotely significant effect." - I applaude and admire such good discipline, I have expected this!! There must be more liberals in our country, remember the 68's, look to the cows on the 19th-century-painting above from Partenkirchen and have in mind our big traffic problems in earlier times too:

"I restored over 400 listed buildings ..." - working as architect since 1979 (planning HVAC since 1991), in detail - not all of them had been 'complete' restorations, after the reunification there had been lots of rescue actions in city cores, there we let only repair the roofs and securing the windows of endangered listet buildings to let them wait in safe condition for further rehab. And in the number are the single financed yearly sections of complete restorations of eg castles and monasteries and other such bigger buildings too. Here you can get a little impression ...

Best regards

Konrad

 

[biffvernon]

Here you can get a little impression ...
Best regards Konrad

A little impression? That is the best collection of pics we've ever seen on PPUK.

And thanks, Konrad, for the lovely calendar pictures again
Biff

 

[Jon Maine]

Konrad, That makes sense, now I know you are an architect, that is a lot of buildings. I have had a look at the link you sent but sadly can only read a very little German although the pictures say it all. Very impressive work.

I presume you are still resident in Germany and practicing as an architect?

I am a conservation builder, I have spent the last 15 years saving a merchants house. I started with nothing and had to wait until the right time to start , took me 10 years then 5 years ( not solid on site ) from start to finish. My architect is Dutch.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Nina]

Hello Konrad.... I have also looked at your site. Very interesting and wonderful pictures. Thank you for sharing them.

Nina

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm horrified that rendering is being removed with such gusto that holes are being created that penetrate into the depths of the house.

Please hold of your horror until you know all the facts. I had exactly the same think in my house, I removed some very unattached render to find I could see into the living room. In this case it was due to a piece of wood embedded into the outside wall which had rotted completely underneath the cement render. Not much you can do about this until you actually start the work as it was all hidden.

Ditto. Great lumps of cement render have already fallen off our house dragging the remains of rotted timbers with them. And that's before I've even started on replacing the cement render with lime.

 

[chuckey]

Konrad you have done those German house proud!! I am very partial the the decorative stlye of these sorts of properties, I wonder why we never managed to do anything remotely comparable over here. We have a compromise between the "European" style and the rather bleak and plain Scottish? Or was it simply that the Germans had more resources to invest in their properties? Or is it simply taste?
Frank

 

[biffvernon]

Oh dear. If you want to find the truth behind bournonite look here. There are some very nice pictures. A lot nicer than the mess that Peter Ward's firm made of the cottage discussed above. That is truly dreadful, worse than a sulphide of lead, copper and antimony, and anyone who thinks it has anything to do with conservation has clearly been out in the Australian sun for too long. And just because Nemesis has been banned, don't think some of the rest of us can't talk like an Aussie.

However, speaking as a once-upon-a-time geologist myself, I am inclined to think that treating certain types of stone with limewater ought to be a very good way to stop them falling apart. I think we ought to give a bit more credit and credence to experiments in this area. I'd be interested to hear more on this subject.

 

[Jon Maine]

However, speaking as a once-upon-a-time geologist myself, I am inclined to think that treating certain types of stone with limewater ought to be a very good way to stop them falling apart. I think we ought to give a bit more credit and credence to experiments in this area. I'd be interested to hear more on this subject.

I think that is the key, It can stop stones falling apart. I still take the view if a stone is rotten the best course of action is replacement. We can soak rotten timber in resin to harden it too but again I would rather replace that also. By doing this you ensure the long term viability of the structure.

On the other hand I to conserve stone in a more sheltered environment it maybe more appropriate or for irreplaceable carvings.

I do believe that the use of a shelter coat is important, especially on new limestone to help it to calcify.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Certainly a lot of food for thought here; many thanks to all who have inputted ideas. I will certainly be doing a lot more investigation into what it originally looked like, and will try to replicate that as faithfully as I can. I should say though that this house has evolved and can't be as it was; a 30's extension was added (sympatheticallly, but trashing the symmetry), and apparently a Georgian summer room with a pagoda roof disintegrated and is now a strange appendage with a perspex roof. The rooms where meat was hung and stored have been turned into a tanked kitchen, in a manner I'm sure Mr Hughes will not like, and the ha-ha has been smashed up by an enormous, 40 feet,holly hedge.


Please don't hold me responsible for this. I will be keeping the original fossil bed fireplaces, reed ceilings, priest hole, and everything else that is historically important. I will not be installing satellite dishes, plastic windows, conservatories, silly doors, laminate floors or concrete anywhere.

Dear Lime, I am not doing anything with gusto. It has taken me 6 months to get to the point of removing some render after a lot of research and expert advice. When I did I realised that someone has rendered over a very insecure surface and stuffed huge holes in the stone with any old rubbish that simply fell away when the render was removed. I will post some pics when I figure out how so you can see. Anyway I've stopped now; I accept my limitations.

Many thanks to MdB and FlyFisher for defending me.

Many thanks to Mr Hughes for scholarly love of old things, and to Dave Brigg for kind and practical advice, and that radiating Lincolnshire warmth.

This building has been neglected for around 200 years, and is crumbling and rotting away. It reeks of damp and has colonies of insects despite constant cleaning. The wallpaper hangs off the walls, and I can't store food as it just goes mouldy. The fact that the kitchens/ servants' quarters (4 rooms) are underground makes it even worse. It badly needs major work, but I can't afford to pay for it. I thought we could do it ourselves, but I'm no longer convinced.

I love my period property so much, that I can't save it right now frustrates and depresses me.

This forum is rather a baptism of fire, I have been living in seclusion for a while and am not accustomed to such heated debate and stern judgement. I think I will go back to my tapestry and invite the vicar for tea.

Jocelyn

 

[Lime]

I'm pleased to hear you love your house so much.
That is how it should be.
I was only thinking of the house too.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Don't do yourself down over the tapestry, it'll help keep the draughts out. And my "scholarly love of old things" conjures up a warm antiquarian image I can't live up to, but I wish I could. As for your kitchen, well, "tanked" worried me, but I am a great believer that the "ordinary" country house can and should move with the times (a bit) and I've been quite happy to see unremarkable and redundant game larders and dairies knocked through into "family kitchens" to give the rest of the house a chance of surviving for another 200 years. (Though I think those houses might work even better if an army of servants could be found - I remember a new inhabitant of a large house asking if there were any "Kiyncil Hises" in the village, and when I assured her - unsure of the reaction - that there were, getting the response, "oh good, one can't run these places without staff" - and that was less than a decade ago)
Priest Hole in a Georgian house does surprise me though - can I come and have a look? I have friends near Stamford who I stay with occasionally (while bemoaning their fondness for cement), so it wouldn't be much of a trip.
Congratulations, you've weathered the storm of your first thread on PP, and actually we're mostly pretty nice when we get to know you (it's a bit like having new neighbours, you're never sure how they're going to turn out, and this is a pretty small village)
Welcome, and please keep us all informed.

 

[Stephen]

Konrad

A very impressive series of photos. As a surveyor I inspect many houses - would not like to say how many over a 30 year career (so far) and I suspect that we Architects and Surveyors actually get to see far more than a builder might. However, because we are not necessarily on site every day dealing with the details I believe it is important to listen and learn from all involved, particularly those who do the work. I assume you take a similar view. This is why a forum such as this is important - even for us 'professionals'.

My point about UK/Germany was not intended to be anything to do with national or other man-made boundaries. The simple fact is that a property will be affected by many factors most particularly its specific location. Here in the UK houses in the South West will suffer different problems to those in the East because of the geography and climate, as well as the materials in that locality traditionally used to build with. Social factors such as how a building is used, etc also play a part as could a specific lifestyle of any given community (e.g. keeping animals in the house).

In my experience pets do not play a measurable part in the problem of salts in buildings. As we have not normally had farm or other (non pet) animals in our buildings for several centuries I doubt that animals are a major factor with regard to salts. However, converted farm buildings pose a different problem because of salts and now we are finding that houses by roads can suffer road salt problems. I have even found a situation where a leaking foul water drain resulted in salt problems in a basement wall near the leak. I hope this explains what I have generally found here in the UK. I agree that if salts are suspected (and this is a possibility that should always be considered) the DIY test you mention could be helpful.

It is useful to hear about your experience in Germany, much the same as it is useful to hear about what goes on in Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, etc, etc. However, when undertaking the work I do in East England I then have to consider the specific situation and the possibility that what others experience elsewhere might not apply here. The danger of a forum such as this is that some may assume that what works in one location or in one situation will work for all. Unfortunately it is rarely as simple as that.

Going back to an earlier part of the discussion about lime watering, this is something that was quite common in the past but is now more frowned upon. In theory it should work, but in practice it seemed to have limited efficacy. It is not generally something we would recommend, but I would not discount it entirely. Rather if we generally want to protect a stone surface rather than lime watering why not simple limewash, but adjust the number of coats (and therefore thickness) according to the situation, etc. My main concern is that because you are introducing a lot of water into what could be a porous stone it should not be undertaken when there is any threat of frost, otherwise you could cause more damage than you cure.

Jocelyn

Don't be scared off. There is heated discussion because most posting here are passionate about their buildings. However, like most families we usually kiss and make up eventually - or simply agree to differ. There is a steep learning curve and although the 'judgement' may seem harsh and at times cruel many of the comments come from those who have seen what doing the wrong thing can do to a building and cost to the owner. We have to remember that for about 100 years we have gone down a technical path that was fundamentally different to the previous 1,000+ years. Until about the mid 80s we had tended to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are still many who do not understand that although two buildings may look the same they could be very different technically. It is a bit like two cars, how can you tell by looking whether they run on petrol or deisel? Get it wrong and you will soon realise the difference! Now we have got to an understanding that each property (new or old) must be considered and dealt with individually things are getting better. It sounds as if you have just got to this point and you may find that what you previously understood about buildings has to be set aside and some new stuff taken on board. I hope you continue to use and enjoy this site.

Stephen

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thank you Lime for forgiving me, and a gentle response.

Thank you Stephen for those wise remarks. Yes, it is a steep learning curve. When I fell in love with this house last spring I had no idea about anything except old books, and they are not the same as old houses. Our purchase was utterly, foolishly romantic. I thought I'd have this house listed and in "Period Homes" within a few years. Ha ha! But if I'd been less naive I'd probably have stayed in my one bed flat in London, and that would have been a shame. It's a great privilege to be here, and yes, to learn the secrets of this very individual house.

Dear Mr Hughes I am quite a-flutter at your suggestion. It is extremely kind, and nice of you to want to come here and allow me to pick your brains, but I feel a little like a mouse wandering into a lion's den. You may laugh at my anachronistic tapestry when you see it, and scoff at the rather pretentious crenellation around the porch. (It is very old though). Please allow me to mull this over.

If you do come, it must be when the gardens are a sea of aquilegias as they were last spring. And thank you for the warm and genuine welcome to the insomniac, period-property discussion forum obsessive

Jocelyn

 

[biffvernon]

just about the only hill in Lincolnshire in the middle of fields.

Ah, it seems you haven't ventured far north enough yet. The highest hills lie to the west of Louth - and if travelling eastwards from there you would not find a bigger hill this side of the Urals.

Jocelyn, have you joined SPAB? The East Midlands group is quite active with regular visits to places of interest. We had a meeting at my house last summer. Perhaps after you've met Gareth you might be ready for meeting a whole not more of us strange folk.

Stephen, when you say, in respect of limewater, "In theory it should work, but in practice it seemed to have limited efficacy" I'm a bit puzzled. Is the theory wrong or is observation of efficacy wrong?
Actually, I think the problem is that there just is not enough known about the very complex geochemistry involved. The amount of scientific research that has been done in this area really is very limited. I was having a discussion about this recently with the bloke in charge of stone conservation of York Minster, where the problems are particularly befuddled by the high magnesium content of the limestone. Here he is with one of his charges at the apex of the Great East Window.

 

[Penners]

Jocelyn

Well, if nothing else, you've certainly drawn out the Big Guns in this thread - some of the experts that we don't hear from very often. I hope you're honoured! :wink:

The fairly heated debate above is nothing more serious than an illustration of how passionately the people on this forum feel about our common interest - period properties. Well done for sticking with it.

We very much look forward to hearing ongoing news of your project - its tribulations and its successes. Pictures are always welcome, too.

 

[Konrad Fischer]

Dear all,

this is the historic town hall of Bremen (world heritage building)

.

We restored very tender some years ago using lime water to strenghten the surface of sanding natural stones with an acceptable result. All the other repair work was done with pure hydratic (not hydraulic!) lime render, mortar, jointing and wash. If someone is interested to see some more pics - here (use Google Translator to get an imagination in english). And the result for the facade was aimed not to be a perfectly new shaped surface, it was intended to change nothing of the given state - except filling the holes where water comes in and some retouche of very bad looking coloured parts. So we saved a lot of money and keeped the old charming building to which the public had been accustomed, although it was a status and shape of the last (very wrongly done) restoring of the 60s. Regarding my lime experience I have an english lecture text here, maybe some are interested.

And who wants to know what my old fellow Biff did mean with "calendar pictures" - here is a digital copy (PDF) for all of you - my christmas present :wink:

Thanks a lot for all the nice comments. For all which don't know me from earlier posts, search my name in this forum ...

Best regards

Konrad

 

[Schoolmarm]

Jocelyn, Gareth is a CO. I cannot think of a better offer to receive than for him to come and look at your house and give you his advice. Forget house and garden worries,just invite him round 8)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Dear Gareth and all,

Please will you come round? I have nice tea and biscuits, or could even make an unidentifiable meat pie that you seem fond of.

I phoned my local council today and the lady I spoke to hadn't heard of a CO. She said I could do what I liked.

Jocelyn

 

[Stephen]

Biff

As someone who is more used to brick and timber I do not claim to be an expert on stone. My understanding is that if lime in a very watery solution is applied the water evaporates leaving particles of lime to fill voids, etc - hence consolidating the stone. This is of course a very simplified (simplistic!) view, but generally a non scientific explanation of how lime watering should work. However, I have been told by colleagues that in their experience it does little to assist in the slowing down of degaradation. Not sure why and it would be useful to have more information and scientific backing or counter-argument to the use of lime watering. A few years ago I suggested lime watering be considered for some fragile carved stone and was told that the powers that be do not consider it a suitable method because it had been used on this particular item before and had done little or nothing to help prevent deterioration. I suspect this could make an interesting separate thread whereby others share their knowledge and experience of this method.

Penners

Big Guns can do a lot of damage if used too frequently or indiscriminently!!

 

[Schoolmarm]

Dear Gareth and all,

Please will you come round? I have nice tea and biscuits, or could even make an unidentifiable meat pie that you seem fond of.

I phoned my local council today and the lady I spoke to hadn't heard of a CO. She said I could do what I liked.

Jocelyn

Yes you can do as you like, but how wonderful if a Conservation officer came round as a friend.

.....................................................

Just been trawling through the link given by these people and found this section. Would you want anyone working on your house with such limited experience or qualifications?
Quote;
"
Peter Ward
Business manager. Responsible for overall management and paper pushing! Peter has considerable experience in the business world. After University In the early 1980's, he ran a farm contracting and building company, but sold this when he moved to Australia. 4 years running gold mines followed, before setting up a mining software development company. This became one of the largest mining and farm software companies globally. He sold this to return to England in 1999, to restore period properties. In his spare time Peter maintains links with the mining industry and collects mineral and gem specimens. He has two horses, and works with them whenever he can.

Mark Poole
General Manager - Mark is responsible for the day to day running of our jobs. He has a family background of painting and decorating stretching back over three generations. He has nearly completed his Plumbing studies, and will shortly be CORGI registered. Mark handles all of our plumbing and heating installations, which allows us a much greater degree of flexibility when working on tricky restoration jobs. Married, his wife Emma just had their second baby, so he's usually at home by 6pm to do the evening feeding!

Sarah Goss
Office Manager and Conservation graduate. Sarah graduated in Conservation Studies from Portsmouth Uni and has started work with us this year. Thrown into the deep end with a large block of concrete tied to her feet is probably a fairly apt description - but she has risen to the challenge - Sarah is a confident computer whizz, and prepares all of our survey reports, costings, schedules, maps and plans. She now has a shiny new copy of Autocad, and is very proud of her plans and elevations of timber framed houses. She's just embarking on the Masters degree in Building Conservation at Ironbridge, so will be a very intelligent conservationist soon!!

Ryan Braden and Steve Carrington
Our conservation Apprentices. We're very proud of these two - they disappear for days on end to remote parts of Shropshire and the Border counties to restore inglenook fireplaces and re-point all manner of strange buildings. All we ever hear of them is vague reports from clients about 'those two lovely lads' who eat lots of strange things from local chip shops, and complain bitterly that Peter hasn't ordered them enough Heritage House T shirts and Polo shirts. They're also very good at building stone walls, and lime rendering things (including themselves) They're also studying hard, doing various courses - their next one is in Scotland at the Scottish Lime Centre in March (If the nice lady in the B&B will have them again...!) Steve plays a lot of Rugby, and Ryan..... well..... we don't want to know...!

Andy, Brendan, Roger...
Part of the support team - carpenters, plasterers and timber framers - all talented and very definitely individuals to a man..! We'll write more on these guys as time allows.. "
end Quote.

.................
Also interesting to see pics of the 20 grand outdoor stone wall. The face of which was liberally splattered with pushed in pinning stones. What is that all about?