Selecting a good lime plasterer

[JoceAndChris]

Contary to my belief I've had no difficulty in finding a plethora of people not too far away who advertise lime plastering. One is coming at 4pm!

What questions do I ask him, to assess his competence? Should I challenge him on the mix, the business of animal hair? (it's the dining room ceiling he will be sorting out, with a view to building a good enough working relationship to have him do the whole of the downstairs and the outside)

Is it OTT to ask to see a portfolio of work? There's no website for this company. Or is it just a case of suck him and see? :wink:

Always the difficulty - the expensive company with the great website, testimonials and logoed van, or the unknown individual tradesman.

 

[Moo]

The usual advice is to visit previous customers, I believe.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Goodness me. I will ask then, if there any local exteriors that he has plastered that I can visit.
Thanks Moo.

 

[AMc]

Ask for 3 customer references - meaning 3 previous customers who are happy to either be called or call you to discuss what they had done and how happy they are with the work - most people are happy to recommend a good tradesperson as a favour in kind for a good job.
If you can visit one so much the better but only my very favourite tradesmen would be allowed to troop their prospective customers through my house.
One of my plumbers had a folder of letters of recommendation from previous customers which he proudly showed me on his first visit.
If they can't provide any references then I'd be concerned.

Ask where they've worked recently. When one of our local joinery companies told me they'd been working on the Hall for years it gave me a lot more confidence that they knew what they were talking about when being sympathetic to our old house. f they've been skimming plasterboard on the local new builds then I'd be cautious.

I'd also ask about how long they've been trading. An unmarked van and a non VAT registration are not an indication of anything untoward. One of my local builders only takes jobs by referral from existing customers so he doesn't have problems with his clients - he's been trading for 30 years and never advertised or put his name on the van.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks AMc. That's extremely good advice - you're right, if they shy away from providing letters of recommendation/photographs/customer telephone numbers then it's a sign of something a little unsettling. I'm glad to hear your sound judgement has provided you with tradesmen you are happy with. The only point you make that I might be a little more tolerant about is one of local opportunities, you do live in a more prosperous area, this is Grantham and the Grantham builders have to take what they can get, so I might be less put off than yourself if he says he hasn't been working on period properties lately, as long as he can prove his experience is substantially of that.
I'd sooner pay more and get a good job - and it isn't just the quality of the lime plastering, but also the judgement involved- will the ceiling take a repair- a rose- a chandelier- or should it just be pulled down and done again? I'll be interested to hear his response to that question. I'll be so upset if our new chandelier comes crashing to the floor becasue of someone's misjudgement.

 

[Flyfisher]

One of my local builders only takes jobs by referral from existing customers so he doesn't have problems with his clients - he's been trading for 30 years and never advertised or put his name on the van.

I'd say that's pretty much the ideal sort of tradesman; no expensive advertising overheads and an existing customer base to keep him busy and vitally important for him to keep them happy.

The trick, of course, is finding them.

Joce, you might want to consider starting your selection during the initial telephone call. Rather than just simply ask if they could come around to discuss some work, have a reasonably detailed chat about it first, which will hopefully give you a fair idea if they know what they are talking about regarding lime plastering. At the same time, you could ask them for references and, ideally, follow them up before you decide who to invite over to look at the project. Just a thought.

 

[LadyArowana]

I'll be so upset if our new chandelier comes crashing to the floor becasue of someone's misjudgement.

I would hope it was being fixed to something a bit more substantial than the plaster :lol:

 

[JoceAndChris]

I'll be so upset if our new chandelier comes crashing to the floor becasue of someone's misjudgement.

I would hope it was being fixed to something a bit more substantial than the plaster :lol:

Well, yes, LadyA, but I'm concerned that walking about on the timbers up there to affix the chandelier might prove too much for the poor old thing. And if it isn't structurally sound enough to take the work that the fixing of the rose and chandelier would cause, but is structurally sound enough just to sit there and be painted, it would be nice to know, as there is still time to revoke my chandelier decision and just upgrade the wall sconces.
I'd sooner have the original reed ceiling, even if it's fragile, and unable to be illuminated, than a smooth new one with a lovely chandelier. When you have really wonky ceilings, they all need to be that way! (in a little house, like this, anyhow)

One of my local builders only takes jobs by referral from existing customers so he doesn't have problems with his clients - he's been trading for 30 years and never advertised or put his name on the van.

I'd say that's pretty much the ideal sort of tradesman; no expensive advertising overheads and an existing customer base to keep him busy and vitally important for him to keep them happy.

The trick, of course, is finding them.

Joce, you might want to consider starting your selection during the initial telephone call. Rather than just simply ask if they could come around to discuss some work, have a reasonably detailed chat about it first, which will hopefully give you a fair idea if they know what they are talking about regarding lime plastering. At the same time, you could ask them for references and, ideally, follow them up before you decide who to invite over to look at the project. Just a thought.

Such an interesting slant - I've never had the confidence to do that, but now might be a good time to start. I always feel it's me who's given the grilling, and will never forget the Stamford tradesman who informed me he doesn't usually touch Grantham people as they don't pay their bills but as I had a nice accent he'd come out!!! Such worlds of snobbery in this county...
Your idea would eliminate a lot of wasted time on both sides.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Being hopeless at cutting deals or managing staff I am probably the last person to give you advice Joce, but my preference is to work with self-employed tradesmen. Giving them a small job to start with lets you get some idea both of how committed they are to doing a good job and what their level of skill is. In most cases the individuals I have worked with are not the very best technically and some compromise has been needed but the results have been good enough and the experience not too painful.

One can get too hung-up about quality I feel. If one were living in an important Grade I building quality would be paramount, but most ordinary mortals don't. The craftsmanship needs to be good enough for purpose and for the character of the house. Too much luxury or perfection introduced into an ordinary middle or working class dwelling (what I would call the Fulham Syndrome*) can look a bit off key I think.

*Fulham in London largely comprises rather ordinary Victorian houses built for the lower middle classes on which immeasurable sums of bankers' bonuses have been lavished since the neighbourhood went up market. Silk purses and sows' ears always come to mind when I see them. Apologies to any Fulham residents here - I am sure there are just as many rude things you can say about we Islingtonites, most of which will be true.

 

[Flyfisher]

Joce, I know what you mean about having the confidence to ask pertinent questions but, frankly, any tradesman (or anyone really) who just relies on trying to bamboozle anyone with technical terms or TLAs would get a black mark from me. That's not to say technical terms don't have a place when discussing such matters, but I'd be wary about anyone who is not prepared to explain in some more detail when asked. I'm terrible for asking loads of questions but I've always found that the genuine, enthusiastic, experts are always willing to explain the details if I don't understand immediately. The biggest turn-off is the "oh, you don't need to worry yourself about all that" type of response to a genuine question, and always makes me suspicious that they don't actually know what they're talking about.

If you do decide to discuss things in some detail over the phone, just make up a list of questions before calling. They won't know you've got a crib sheet but it might help you marshall your thoughts.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Being hopeless at cutting deals or managing staff I am probably the last person to give you advice Joce, but my preference is to work with self-employed tradesmen. Giving them a small job to start with lets you get some idea both of how committed they are to doing a good job and what their level of skill is. In most cases the individuals I have worked with are not the very best technically and some compromise has been needed but the results have been good enough and the experience not too painful.

One can get too hung-up about quality I feel. If one were living in an important Grade I building quality would be paramount, but most ordinary mortals don't. The craftsmanship needs to be good enough for purpose and for the character of the house. Too much luxury or perfection introduced into an ordinary middle or working class dwelling (what I would call the Fulham Syndrome*) can look a bit off key I think.

*Fulham in London largely comprises rather ordinary Victorian houses built for the lower middle classes on which immeasurable sums of bankers' bonuses have been lavished since the neighbourhood went up market. Silk purses and sows' ears always come to mind when I see them. Apologies to any Fulham residents here - I am sure there are just as many rude things you can say about we Islingtonites, most of which will be true.

:lol: :lol: I know what you mean Nigel, but the TV aerial installation (mistaken gouge in the drawing room cornice, trailing wires) upsets me every single day. A certain level of neatness, of pride in work is called for. And with this the most important thing is whether I feel I've been given an honest assessment as to whether the ceiling is structurally sound enough to go on.There are some tradesmen, I'm sure, who would give it its death sentence just for a bit of extra work, and it would be very hard to know whether to believe them or not. I think I will get three opinions.

Good advice regarding the self-employed tradesman, I'm inclined to agree when the task is smallish.

The biggest turn-off is the "oh, you don't need to worry yourself about all that" type of response to a genuine question, and always makes me suspicious that they don't actually know what they're talking about.

That is so very true, and sadly, that's the one I hear most. As a female customer this is the typical attitude of the male tradesman, and you a re left wondering if a) they don't want to trouble your frilly female mind with their techniques b) they haven't a clue how they'll go about the job as they've never come across this particular situation before but they're confident they'll find a way somehow.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Joce,

You must ask for references, and ideally from jobs which have been similar to the one you have in mind.

After you've grilled them on the phone, any tradespeople who are still prepared to visit should be bombarded with as many questions as possible to assess their ability to cope with an enthusiastic and interested client. If they can't communicate then they don't get the work. I'd be wary of the ones who say 'this is how it must be done' and more interested in any who say 'there are several different ways of tackling this...'. in other words somebody who is able to consider all the variables and can hold more than one idea in their head at a time.

Ideally you'd find a minor job for the chosen candidate to have a bash at first, before letting them loose on anything major. Do they turn up on the right day? Do they wipe their feet? Do they hoover up after themselves and leave the place spotless? Does the work appear to be OK?
Am I setting unrealistically high standards here? No, I don't think so. If you're paying somebody to come into your house and practise their trade then you can set whatever standards you like.

Hopefully you will meet a nice person who is technically competent, and you'll have a long and happy working relationship fuelled by lots of tea and cake. Don't forget that providing a high quality job with a high level of customer service does cost more than doing a messy bodge job, so you will (probably) have to pay a bit more, and provide better cake.

I'm writing this as a tradesman who tries to provide the sort of good service discussed above. It amazes me that so many people accept rotten standards from tradesmen - and it is usualy men. There's no excuse for not cleaning up, or not turning up, or (as one guy did in my house) stubbing out his fag on the porch floor as he arrived. No job for him!

 

[JoceAndChris]

How shocking Andrew, to stub out his cigarette on your porch floor!
But that's all lovely and very kind advice, how I wish you were a lime plasterer and not too far away. I agree that excellent relationships can be forged, and it's so nice when that happens. I really like my joiner, for example, and give him a good lunch - not just cake!

Well, my first lime plasterer has just been, and no way would I trust his opinion about a single inch of my property. No compliments,in a tearing hurry, took one very quick glance at it and immediately said "The whole thing's got to be ripped down, I'm actually scared to walk under it and I wouldn't touch it as a repair job." What an unsporting verdict! I said that surely if it was going to fall down a) it would have fallen down by now and b) it would have fallen down in small sections, the worst bits first. He said not at all, the whole thing could come crashing down in one great piece and crush us.
Here it is:

This, surely, is an example of the alarmist tradesman who will say anything to get a quick job from a naive person.

When I showed him the broken, cracked render outside, he said the best solution was this rubberised wonder paint, you roll it on and it covers all the cracks. Grr.

When I asked for portfolios, references, or photographs, he said he's worked on Lincoln Cathedral and Blenheim Palace.

Surely someone who had worked on Lincoln Cathedral and Blenheim Palace might have something to show me other than an I say so?

 

[MatthewC]

Well, my first lime plasterer has just been, and no way would I trust his opinion about a single inch of my property. No compliments,in a tearing hurry, took one very quick glance at it and immediately said "The whole thing's got to be ripped down, I'm actually scared to walk under it and I wouldn't touch it as a repair job." What an unsporting verdict! I said that surely if it was going to fall down a) it would have fallen down by now and b) it would have fallen down in small sections, the worst bits first.

Whilst I agree with the rest your comments about him (and it doesn't sound as though I would want to employ him either), I do think he may have a point about the ceiling judging by your photo. Although it hasn't fallen down (yet), the trouble surely is that if you try to remove and replace just a bit of it, then the rest is likely to become even more loose and fall down as well? (I do have recent experience of removing lots of plaster from lath ceilings and have just realized that my kitchen ceiling (18' x 12') is going to have to come down as well... )

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh dear Matthew, I'm so sorry to read of your ceiling losses.

Long ago I decided that just because something can be pulled off easily doesn't mean it should be. I set myself the standard that only if my foot went through it, it disintegrated in my hand, or fell about my ears would it be replaced. Once it's gone it's gone, and whilst a new lath and plaster ceiling would be nice it is not the original Regency one of reed (this chap said you can't get reeds anymore. :? )

My thinking may be wrong, and may lead to my early demise, but no-one will ever say of my house "restored to within an inch of its life".

I know that I could gently fill those cracks with Polyfiller Onefill, as Penners suggested long ago- this, and no chandelier, may be the solution.

 

[MatthewC]

Our house has two internal lath walls (AFAIK) and all the ceilings are lath*. Much of upstairs was severely affected by damp so everything that didn't need to come down was a bonus! Given that we could see daylight through the holes in two bedroom ceilings, we knew that they would probably have to come down; in the event it just wasn't worth trying to save even the odd bit of those two ceilings (see photos on my blog). The two lath walls had both been patch repaired with pink gypsum and some rock hard polyfiller(?) in various places, and were both suffering from crazing and large loose patches; when you press on the plaster and a couple of square feet move, it surely indicates that it is going to fall off soon. I think it was only the hair holding it together. My view was that we want to fix it now for the foreseeable future - after all, it doesn't have an infinite life, and the last thing I want is to have to re-plaster after we move in.

As regards choice of plasterer, I believe that you do need to meet them and decide whether you can work with them. My roofer recommended my plasterer, who is his brother in law. (In fact, thinking about it, I have got all but one of my contractors as a recommendation from other contractors.) When I met him he enthused over the use of lime, and demonstrated an empathy with the needs of an old house. Apart from a discussion over how long to leave the scratch coat, he has been great.

Matthew
http://houseintheenchantedforest.blogspot.com/

* Although a bit of the hall has plasterboard over lath! (Or under if you are pedantic)

 

[Feltwell]

That ceiling has some serious bow in it Joce! Apologies if this has been asked before, but is there any access from above to see if the reeds are still attached at all to the ceiling joists?

* Although a bit of the hall has plasterboard over lath! (Or under if you are pedantic)

Not uncommon. Pulling down old ceilings is a horribly messy job, it's quite common for them to be plasterboarded over the orginal, cracked L&P ceiling. Or are you saying that there is no plaster, just lath?

I'm actually in the middle of putting insulated plasterboard over some sloping attic ceilings of mine - it's the only way of improving the insulation (we have as much insulation as can be fitted between the rafters already, done from outside when we replaced the roof). At least the original L&P ceiling is still there, to be uncovered in the future if someone wants to.

 

[worms]

That ceiling has some serious bow in it Joce!

Glad you mentioned that, I couldn't work out whether it is badly bowed, or whether it was a trick of the light from the window...

 

[Gareth Hughes]

It's a trick of the light, unless it's got a lot worse since the PPUKe party. But Joce does have the advantage of one of the leading firms specialising in that sort of thing being only fifteen minutes' walk away. No advertising here, so she's been made aware by Other Means.

 

[Penners]

I know that I could gently fill those cracks with Polyfiller Onefill, as Penners suggested long ago- this, and no chandelier, may be the solution.

I'm glad that you're still considering that, Joce. I still think it may be the "gentlest" solution.