Replacing the dreaded placcy!

[Penners]

Is it really difficult to fit windows. Could we do a DIY job?

"Difficult" is a very subjective concept. One is forced to fall back on the old adage, "it's easy when you know how".

Provided the windows have been carefully specified, so that they are a good fit in the window reveals, then fitting them is not a difficult job, assuming you have a reasonable basic level of competence at woodwork and building.

"Carefully specified" means that the window should be a good, comfortable fit in the reveal - not too big and not too small. When you come to measure up the reveal in order to decide the overall size of your window, for goodness sake don't assume that it's square - or rather, that every corner is a right-angle. Measure the height, measure the width, and then measure the diagonals. If they aren't identical, then you have an out-of-square reveal, and this will affect the size of window that can be fitted.

Some people like to play it safe and specify the window a bit smaller than the reveal, then secure it in place with wedges before finally fixing it. (Hence Biff's comment above). This also makes it easier to get the window truly plumb if the reveal is a bit out-of-plumb. Personally, I tend to let the window follow the line of the reveal, even if it's a bit out-of-level. I think it looks better.

Once you've got a frame that fits nicely into the reveal (with or without wedges - your choice), then modern frame-fixing screws make the job of fixing pretty straightforward. You can drill through the frame and into the masonry (I assume your house is masonry?) with the same diameter drills. Countersink the holes in the frame then just drive in your frame fixings with a hammer. Don't be over-enthusiastic at this - one bad hammer blow can cause damage to the frame and/or bend the screw. Just bang away moderately and patiently until your screw and its sleeve are both below the surface level of the frame (you'll probably need to use a drift or punch for the last few millimetres below the wood surface). Then give the screw a little tweak with a screwdriver - usually about half a turn. You can then fill the countersink to hide the hole, then sand off flush with the wood.

Your choice of frame sealant, to fill any gaps between the frame and the masonry, is up to you. You can use a modern cartridge mastic product, or you can use Biff Vernon's favourite traditional recipe of fine sand and linseed oil, mixed to a paste.

Just one final word of warning. Be careful when you're driving in your fixings that you don't wrench the frame out-of-square. This will make the opening sashes jam.

I hope that helps you to decide whether you regard the job as easy or not!

 

[skier-hughes]

VAT is charged on small quantites of fuel at 5%, but if you have a large tank and fill it from empty you could move into the 17.5% bracket, as you become a business user, so confirm with your local supplier the quantities involved.

As for cost of softwood windows, it depends on what quality softwood they are using. We buy in clear vertical close grain and it costs a packet!!

We fit our own, but then my father in law is a carpenter and joiner, but making window reveals is an interesting and not so easy job to get just right. Then we use oak wedges and linseed oil/sand mastic.

Graham

 

[Penners]

VAT is charged on small quantites of fuel at 5%, but if you have a large tank and fill it from empty you could move into the 17.5% bracket

We have a 3000 litre tank, and no supplier has ever questioned whether it's for domestic use. I've always paid 5% VAT.

 

[skier-hughes]

Have you ever had 3000 litres?
If like us you have 1500 at a time and fill it to 3/4 from 1/4 full, then you'll always be under the limit.

Taken from HM's site
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000136&propertyType=document#P38_2189

(f) a supply of not more than 2,300 litres of fuel oil, gas oil or kerosene;

Although also on the same google page, this supplier has it wrong

http://www.heatingoil.co.uk/faq
What is the VAT rate for home heating oil?
All domestic customers pay 5% VAT on home heating oil, regardless of quantity.

Same with piped gas and electiricty. At one of my shops I used to ahve two meters, one of which had a low consumption and qualified me for vat of 5% even though it was commercial use, it was classified due to the volume.

Graham

 

[Penners]

No, we've never had 3000 litres, but last September I had 2670. Paid 5% VAT.

 

[Penners]

Although also on the same google page, this supplier has it wrong: All domestic customers pay 5% VAT on home heating oil, regardless of quantity.

Graham - I've had a look at the Revenue & Customs page that you've linked to, and I think I can see where the confusion arises.

Supplies deemed to be for domestic use

5 For the purposes of this Group the following supplies are always for domestic use –

(f) a supply of not more than 2,300 litres of fuel oil, gas oil or kerosene;

I think they're saying that a supply of up to 2300 litres will always be treated as being for domestic use. Whereas a supply in excess of this amount must be shown to be for domestic use (if the question arises).

I reckon that's why no supplier has ever tried to charge us more than 5% VAT. The delivery can always be seen to be for domestic purposes.

 

[skier-hughes]

Or look at it this way, if you are a small business you won't be charged 17.5% vat on small quantities of oil, as it is always deemed to be for residential use, whereas larger quantities are deemed to be for commercial use, regardless of the fact of whether it is for residential or not.

 

[MdB]

Or look at it this way, if you are a small business you won't be charged 17.5% vat on small quantities of oil, as it is always deemed to be for residential use, whereas larger quantities are deemed to be for commercial use, regardless of the fact of whether it is for residential or not.

That's not my reading of it.

Small amounts are always considered residential. Larger quantities are considered residential if supplied for residential use:

6 For the purpose of this Group supplies not within paragraph 5 are for domestic use if and only if the goods supplied are for use in –

(a) a building, or part of a building, that consists of a dwelling or number of dwellings;

 

[biffvernon]

You have to be careful with frame fixing screws. I had a customer who asked me about a crack that had developed in between the mullion and the sill and lintel of a casement window. I pointed out the framing screws that had pulled the window apart and she replied that oh yes, she remembered that I had warned her about using framing screws like that but she had forgotten to tell the bloke who fitted the window.

 

[Flyfisher]

Is it really difficult to fit windows. Could we do a DIY job?

"Difficult" is a very subjective concept. One is forced to fall back on the old adage, "it's easy when you know how".

Provided the windows have been carefully specified, so that they are a good fit in the window reveals, then fitting them is not a difficult job, assuming you have a reasonable basic level of competence at woodwork and building.

I would add that confidence is also a useful attribute. I fitted three casement windows last year although I didn't have the confidence to do so without some expert help - besides, one of the windows was very large (32 panes) so it was a 2-man job anyway. I'd seen it done before and knew what to do but there was just that little nagging feeling of what if I hit some problem and wasn't sure of the 'best practice' to overcome it. But all was well and I now feel confident enough to replace other windows when the time comes. I would say it's a 'know-how' job rather than a skilled job.

 

[Penners]

You have to be careful with frame fixing screws.

What fixings do you use, Biff?

 

[MdB]

You have to be careful with frame fixing screws.

What fixings do you use, Biff?

Molten glass

 

[Penners]

I would add that confidence is also a useful attribute.

Absolutely right - for fitting windows, or for any job you care to name. Ultimately, I think that developing confidence in your own ability to overcome problems is the hurdle that you have to overcome before you become a comfortable DIY-er.

There are usually lots of different ways that a job can be done. You just need the confidence to see through your chosen method.

 

[Penners]

You have to be careful with frame fixing screws.

What fixings do you use, Biff?

Molten glass

Stupid of me - I should have guessed. The on-site furnace makes the job quick and easy.

 

[AMc]

As no one has mentioned it yet, my understanding is installing replacement windows requires Build Control approval.
Unless the house is listed you will be expected to replace the 'thermal element' i.e. window and frame with something that meets current regulations as defined in Part L1B of the approved documents - so something double glazed.

If you use a FENSA registered window installer then they can self certify the window and installation (like a CORGI installer can self certify a boiler installation or a HEATAS installer a soild fuel stove). Otherwise you may need to get the windows inspected by your local building control dept. which shouldn't (again, as I understand it) be expensive but may involve some time and effort.

Not having building control approval for replacement windows will make it harder to sell in future, I'm not sure of the legality of ignoring the building control requirement but I wouldn't risk it on my house.

 

[biffvernon]

Getting the bit of paper from the council following a visit by Building Control might set you back about £70. I did it when I fitted windows in my own house, being such a good law abiding citizen, but I think I've lost the bit of paper. It didn't seem to be worth much and was too small to provide much heat by burning it. Other folk must decide for themselves whether to live the life of an outlaw.

To fix a window without screws or expanding foam, take eight pieces of oak thick enough to almost fit in the gap between masonry and timber and as long as the back to front dimension of the frame. Poke the pieces of wood into the gaps just at the corners to they bear on the end grain of the frame members. Bang them in with a club hammer. Cut off short if they don't go all the way in. A bit of wedge shaping, particularly at the leading end, helps.

Then fill the gaps with filler of your choice - I prefer lime mortar for big gaps and oil-sand mastic for smaller gaps. A tube of the brown stuff marked 'Frame sealant' is easier and quicker to use, but I've no idea what it will look like next century.

 

[Flyfisher]

Not having building control approval for replacement windows will make it harder to sell in future, I'm not sure of the legality of ignoring the building control requirement but I wouldn't risk it on my house.

I'd be surprised if it really made it difficult to sell a house, although some might use it as an excuse to drop the price (just ignore them!).

Presumably, like any law, it's illegal not to abide by BC, but I suspect it's very hard to disprove a claim that the windows were fitted before the regulations came into force - unless they are made from some new-fangled material only just invented.

At least the new wiring regs coincided with changed colour codes to make it a bit easier to date any new work - presumably why the old colour cabling still seems quite popular on eBay :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

To fix a window without screws . . . . . .

I understand the potential to pull a window frame apart by careless use of frame fixings, but if you always drill the frame-fixing through a wedge then I can't see how the fixing would exert any significant force on the window frame joints. With wedges-only you're relying just on friction to hold the window frame in place but with frame fixings you are actually fixing the frame to the surrounding walls.

Perhaps a 'belt and braces' approach is overkill but, for the sake of a couple of pounds and a couple of minutes, frame-fixings are hardly a major undertaking.

 

[skier-hughes]

Fly, how do you think the expanding foam holds windows in?

BC on a house that's up for sale might lead to a mortgage offer being withdrawn. In the hard times we have now it might be a significant thing, when we sold ours 3 years ago their solicitor asked for BC approval note on a window that had been put in. We hadn't done it, no BC our end, all sorts of fuss was caused, with their mortgage company saying they'd put conditions in re the window blah di blah di blah.

In the end we got a retrospective note.

 

[Flyfisher]

I presume there's a glue element with expanding foam, as well as friction, but I don't really know as I've never used that method (or seen anyone else use it). My only experience of expanding foam has been in repairing the rotten woodwork in my roof as a result of someone using the stuff to seal a leak around a chimney - from the inside! So, of course the incoming water was nicely trapped by the foam and accelerated the rotting of the rafters. Woodwork adjacent to the 'foamed' woodwork was equally rained on but, presumably because it had chance to dry out in free air, was in much better condition. Quite a stark demonstration of the virtue of free-air ventilation!

Regarding window certification; fair comment about possible complications with mortgage companies - I was only considering the buyers perspective. But it's all bit Catch 22 - lack of certification might affect the saleability, but only because the mortgage companies might withhold funds if there is no certification . . . . .