Rainwater goods

[Feltwell]

You are right, it does look nicer, but for me it would be the icing on the cake. Something to think about when all else is done. However I can't afford it.

Depends on if you're prepared to do some messy & noisy work with an angle grinder with a wire cup brush to clean secondhand ones up. I bought a job lot, easily enough to do a single terraced house, for £80 on Fleabay.

 

[Sonyaclegg]

Thanks all for your thoughts. Much appreciated. I'm ringing around firms for a bespoke solution to divert the rainwater from the spouts into downpipes.

 

[DJH]

Hello everyone. This is my first time on this Forum and I've found it very interesting. Before I retired I was a decorative leadworker with my own small foundry and I laid lead sheet on buildings as well. I worked on many historic and new houses and towards the end of my career I undertook conservation and repair work on many churches.

The answer to theft of metal, in particular downpipes, has always been around although in the early days we used to fit cast iron pipes at ground level continuing above with lead pipes. One of the main reasons for doing this was to prevent accidental damage which could occur to lead pipes and also because there was little value in cast iron in those days! One particular job I had was the continued replacement of the lower sections of lead rainwater pipes on St Mary Redcliff church in Bristol as they were always being stolen. These pipes were expensive to replace as they were bent to shape as an offset to go over the plinth and took a lot of time to bend. The solution was to coat the pipes with PC99 a non-setting substance which deterred thieves from handling them. It's available from spencercoatings.co.uk. For domestic use in the short term and to avoid getting the stuff on yourselves, I suggest painting the back of the pipes is enough. It can be removed if you wish at a later stage.

The problem with long lead spouts, or gargoyles, sagging under their own weight can be overcome by use of a metal bracket, preferably stainless steel, with the supporting arm bent to the same profile as the spout. A decorative end to the spout can be got by drilling holes either side of the pipe about 4" or so back from the end and then angled cuts are made from both top and bottom of the mouth back to the holes. This will form a 'birds beak' and if a little care is taken to turn the bottom lip down it will enhance it quite a lot especially when viewed from the ground.

An easy way for someone who is not skilled in lead welding (or burning as it used to be known) to adapt a spout to discharge into a down pipe is to fit a hopper or rainwater head as close as possible to the underside of the spout and if a tongue of lead say 2" or so wide, depending on the size of the spout, is cut on the underside and bent down into the hopper rainwater will discharge into the head and, more importantly the dribble that occur long after rainfall will go down the downpipes as well.

Flyfisher kindly showed some pictures of some work of mine above and on his say so I've come aboard here.
If I can get the hang of posting pictures this is a lead rainwater head and pipe. The head is bossed onto a wooden former and is made of two pieces of 6lb lead. The pipe is 6lb lead sheet formed around a pipe and welded up the back. The fixings go through the ears close to the pipe and the ears are then folded over and tucked into place between the pipe and where the ears are welded on.
I apologise for going on so much. I get carried away easily!!

 

[Sonyaclegg]

I can't see the last post

 

[Flyfisher]

The invisible post is by 'DJH' and is, I think, awaiting approval by the moderators (I believe they do this with new members to prevent spam).

DJH crafted the rainwater heads in the photos I posted. I've also seen some of his other work and it is truly wonderful. He has also worked on the restoration of many historic buildings, including the Albert Memorial in London, and is something of an expert craftsman when it comes to leadwork. He is now retired so won't be spamming for business. Anyway, I won't steal any more of his thunder.

 

[LadyArowana]

The invisible post is by 'DJH' and is, I think, awaiting approval by the moderators (I believe they do this with new members to prevent spam).

DJH crafted the rainwater heads in the photos I posted. I've also seen some of his other work and it is truly wonderful. He has also worked on the restoration of many historic buildings, including the Albert Memorial in London, and is something of an expert craftsman when it comes to leadwork. He is now retired so won't be spamming for business. Anyway, I won't steal any more of his thunder.

I'm still hoping he likes elephants!

 

[Flyfisher]

The recently 'missing' post by DJH is now visible but is a few posts back.

Welcome to the forum DJH.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, what a wonderful post from DJH! A big welcome aboard, it's lovely to have the views of an expert craftsman. I think your work is just beautiful, the designs are so very appealing and right looking.

What's the long term outcome for lead? What happens to it over years? Should it be patched, or altogether replaced?

 

[Feltwell]

I apologise for going on so much.

How DARE you apologise! Please go on much more!!

Seriously, it's great to hear from someone with such a craft background, welcome to the forum.

I'm having my own little lead debate at the moment. A much, much more basic job than you show, I have 2 possible jobs for a good lead worker. First one is a straightforward flat roof replacement for a Victorian bay. It's currently felted and doesn't leak, but the slope on it is wrong and it drips water over it's front edge (it has a rear gutter) which is rotting the bottom of the window below as it drips down. I'd love to do it in lead but the debate is around cost & theft risk.

Second job is a porch with a corbel course, as described here, which needs some lead over the corbel course.

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12804&p=172982&hilit=porch+lead#p172982

I don't suppose you know any good lead workers in the Shropshire / Staffs / West Midlands area do you?

One option for me is to ask "Just Lead" to make something up for the porch as above, or there are a few possible internet links, such as:-

http://www.leadroofrepair.co.uk/

 

[DJH]

I forgot to include in the last post these reasons for failures in lead I've experienced, one is when the lead can't expand or contract because bituminous roofing felt has been used as an underlay, and it's melted under the lead during hot weather with the result that the lead has stuck to it and it couldn't move as it should and split.

Other common faults are caused by the wrong sort of fixing (smooth shank nails) which were used to fix the lead in position. The nails had pulled out from the substrate with the repeated movement of the lead, as is usual, and the heads of the nails have cut through the lead sheet on top of it.

The free edge of the lead not properly clipped to avoid wind lift. The list goes on but an experienced leadworker will know all this, hopefully

 

[DJH]

Oh dear, one of my posts has gone walkabout which means my last post is out of sequence. I'm sorry about that I'll try and remember how it went and post it again!

Here’s the post that disappeared into the ether…….
Thank you for your kind words. I have worked with lead for many years in my job as a plumber but just concentrated on it solely in the early 1980’s until my retirement six years ago. I would be delighted, if I can, to help with any queries but should I start a topic solely about it?

Anyway, to answer your question ‘What’s the long term outcome for lead? What happens to it over years? Should it be patched, or altogether replaced?’ I I would say that wherever possible lead should be used both on a like for like basis and as a long term solution where other materials have failed. I was often asked what life span lead has and the answer I used to give, and continue to give, is that, if fitted correctly, it would last the life of the building.’

In my experience lead fails mainly for these reasons……
• The lead has not been the correct thickness for the situation where it has been used been used ie it has not been thick enough.

• It is over sized, that is, either too long or too wide for the thickness of lead used. Splits will occur along the length of the sheet because there is too much weight in the sheet to cope with expansion and contraction. The lead will crease up at the point of least resistance and will continue, over time, to keep expanding and contracting at this point and, as this is now the weakest point it and the lead will become sort of granular and split.

• The lead has been over fixed and cannot take up the expansion and contraction as it should and so again eventually splits.

• Conversely it doesn't have enough fixings, and in this case especially on a slope, it will gradually slide down the roof exposing the substrate and letting in water.

• Underside lead sheet corrosion, which is complicated to explain except at length, but is more common on historic building and churches where heating has been introduced and warm moist air on the underside of the lead cools and condenses, under certain weather conditions, into distilled water, which will corrodes lead.

Lead can be patched, in the short term, using something like Flashband but believe me that will in turn fail as well!

Many years ago when the National Trust introduced a ‘No Hot Works’ ban on all its properties I was involved with testing various adhesives which could be used under these conditions for say patching or fixing clips for lightning conductors, and we found one that was ideal but I can’t remember the name of it but I probably will in the middle of the night!

On reflection, most of this post has been about the failure of lead sheet on roofs but the same priciples apply in most situations where lead is used.

PS I've had a look at the post about the porch roof but at the moment I'm on probation and my posts have to be approved, which I quite understand.

 

[DJH]

These photos were meant to come up on another post but I got it wrong again!!!
This plain head went off to the Tower



This one to the Lord Lieutenant of a West Country county



and this is one of ten heads for St Helens Bishopsgate which got caught up in the Stock Exchange bomb explosion..



I have some more photos if you would like to see them

 

[Schoolmarm]

Ohh yes please!! Fantastic work! So are all the hoppers made by casting or are some shaped from sheets?

 

[DJH]

Its' a mixture really. Some are fabricated from sand cast or rolled lead sheet with the cast mouldings applied, others are from sheet lead bossed in to shape and some cast all in one. It really depended on the style of the particular building, the size of the head required and, of course, the clients/architects wishes.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Ahhh, so very much an art then. 8)

 

[DJH]

This corner head, downpipe and cistern I made for a house I once lived in.....

 

[Sonyaclegg]

DJH, thanks for such a detailed reply. I understood most of it. I have a question if I may. With the spouts we have, do we just need a very large hopper to catch the rain from the spout, or do we need to place something at the mouth of the spout to year the water into the hopper. The house is Grade 2* so I doubt we would be able to adapt the spouts in any way.
Thanks for your photos which show your wonderful work.

 

[DJH]

I've had another look at your photo showing the spout. It does look very short, too short of course to direct water away from your house. It also looks to have quite a large girth and I assume it discharges from a valley gutter. As far as I can tell from your photo there doesn't seem to be any evidence of a down pipe having ever been used there. If that's correct the status of your house may preclude you from fitting one. I'm only guessing of course. Is there a sump or catchpit in the valley on the roof side of spout?

If you used a rainwater head there you could use my suggestion of cutting a toungue on the underside of the spout so that water would discharge into the head and you wouldn't be visually altering the appearance of it.

I'll try and draw a sketch of what I mean but I'm not great on scanning things but I'm bound to learn how to do it somehow.

This is not the answer you are looking for for your problem but this building has a lead dove on each corner each one perched on a spout to take rainwater away. A most unusual job but interesting to do..



Here's something a bit different...These are lead clad timber consols, or side brackets, which sit each side of some mansard windows in Pall Mall. There were 32 of them altogether and I did the carpentry as well.

 

[DJH]

I keep getting asked to login when submitting posts when I'm logged in already! When I do login my posting disappears and I have to start again. This post has now been typed twice and I've forgotten what I said. Grrrr

I’ve seen the photos of your porch Feltwell and can see that you could quite easily get dampness below. I agree that it was a pity when the previous owners re-felted the roof that they didn’t put a dampcourse under the coping stones. They only have a few joints as the stones are so big but any vertical joint can lead to dampness below.

Ideally this should have had a lead dampcourse wide enough to turn down over any flashings fitted below it when it was replaced by the previous owners. When lead is used as a dampcourse or over damp substrates such as fresh mortar or concrete, it should be painted on either one side or both, depending if it is being built in or not, with a bituminous paint such as that used to paint metal oil tanks etc. This coat of paint will prevent corrosion and the unsightly green/yellowish staining often seen on flashings over porches and in chimney stacks.

The brick cornice would benefit from a flashing tucked into the joint below the coping stones extending down the brick course and over the cornice to turn down at the front edge to form a drip. This flashing should have welted joints not laps, and, at the drip, should be turned back under some clips to prevent wind lift. If you are in an exposed position you should consider using a continuous clip. These clips are usually stainless steel or, if you have an old copper cylinder, you can cut some from the wall of it. It would be best from the conservation point of view, to drill the fixings for these clips into the joints rather than the face of the bricks.

To make life a little easier this flashing need not tuck under the coping stones but could be fixed at the top with brass or stainless screws and washers at 500mm centres. This would mean you would have to use a separate flashing tucked under the stone copings extending down to cover these fixings.
Using welted joints means that you wouldn't need either a tilting fillet or a sloping layer of mortar, as water will not leak through these joints like it would a lap and I think you would have better looking job because of it.

I do know some leadworkers in your neck of the woods but, as they are larger firms, I doubt if you would get an economical job. I think that the leadworker whose link you have put up would be more than competent to do this type of work.

I hope this is of help to you but I have to apologise to Sonyaclegg for hogging her topic. I seem to just get carried away once I start off.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Make sure you have cookies switched on in your browser, and tick the box "keep me logged in" or smilar when you login.

As a precaution,before you hit submit on a long post, press ctrl-a (ie press the ctrl and the a key at the same time), and then ctrl-c. That will copy all the text of your post to the clipbaord. If you do then lose it, a simple ctrl-v will repaste it into the text area.

This advice comes to you free, in recognition of the fact that you've fundamentally altered the site. Having real knowledgeable experts here will never catch on, you know! :wink: