Prince Charles and the SPAB...

[Schoolmarm]

I agree about their expectations being vastly different to ours. And I agree that this is the crux of the issue.

 

[CHRIS]

I agree about their expectations being vastly different to ours. And I agree that this is the crux of the issue.

This reminds me of these poor WW1 soldiers who just blindly followed the order to go "Over the top" (They were all expected by the Aristocracy to join and fight for King and country) , if you use the modern British Army as an example (one of the least class effected societies of this day and age) it is not full of the upper classes poncing about on horses (Except a few in the Household Cavalry). It now contains people from all societies and classes and manages to give every single member a chance at promotion - you have platoon commanders of 3 Para, one of which used to be a high flier in the city (from a very posh family) and another who grew up in Tower Hamlets 5 to a bed room, both leading men on operations in Afghanistan. It seems to me that all this lack of expectation stemmed from a serious class divide and lack of education - which thankfully today we have overcome.

Its fair to say that a lot of kids who leave school now want to be the boss from day 1 and dont like to start at the bottom (I think this why people get grand titles in their job descriptions) but this is more to laziness than jumped up expectations!

 

[Lime]

poor WW1 soldiers who just blindly followed the order to go "Over the top" (They were all expected by the Aristocracy to join and fight for King and country) ,

I don't think they did at all.
They would not have described themselves as poor nor blind as you do.
Most of them volunteered to go to war and were proud and brave over and over again.
They were expected to go to war because they were men and that is what men did in time of war.
Those people who expected men to go to war were the poor living on the street, the maid scrubbing the doorstep, the manservant serving his master, the master and his "better" too.
Everyone expected men to go to war.
It was not a class thing as you attempt to make out.
Many officers who came from public schools straight into the war died bravely along with their men.

You belittle their bravery, fortitude and integrity by making out they fought because the aristocracy "made" them fight.

 

[Lime]

Its fair to say that a lot of kids who leave school now want to be the boss from day 1 and dont like to start at the bottom (I think this why people get grand titles in their job descriptions) but this is more to laziness than jumped up expectations!

Once again I disagree with you.

It is "jumped up" expectations that cause them to dislike starting "at the bottom".
Not that I don't think they are lazy too, I do.
However their dislike is generated by their over-expectation.

 

[Gervase]

Back then it was not expected that our social position would change rather that the status quo would remain static.
Now every child is encourage to believe that they will become whatever they dream to be... a recipe for disappointment for many surely?

You may be right, but rest assured - there are folk here in this 'community' who will do their best to ensure that the lower orders continue to know their place, if posts like this are anything to go by.
I didn't say anything at the time - something which I now regret - but the unbelievably crass nature of that post (and others like it in the same thread) is an outrageous message for this forum to be sending out.
I appreciate that for many of the regular posters the forum is simply a chatroom where a particular clique can exchange 'in jokes' and banter, but it is read by many more people than actually post here, and they find such attitudes appalling. I was going to suggest this forum as a resource to a builder I know - but after seeing that thread I'm afraid I thought twice. Ok, he's 'only a builder', so perhaps it's surprising he can read without moving his lips, but his experience would have been useful.
Certainly I know that I'm not alone in becoming increasingly depressed by the message that this forum conveys. Is it that having the responsibility for an old house is simply another part of the 'Country Living' fantasy, and the snobbery is bought along with the shrubbery? Or am I merely being naive in thinking that the purpose of this forum was to serve as a resource for those who wanted to do the right thing for their old buildings?
Whatever the reason, it is a message that I find uncomfortable, which is why I tend not to post much here these days. If anyone does want advice, they can email me, but the sort of attitudes shown in that thread are not those with which I would choose to be associated. If I wanted to experience the parvenu prejudices of the Daily Mail I'd pick up a copy in my local newsagent's. I don't want to find them here.
For heaven's sake, if the members of the clique here must exhibit such crashing snobbery, they could at least do it with some wit and style:

Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.

Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.

It's ever so close in the lounge dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me

Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know that I wanted to ask you-
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?

Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

 

[CHRIS]

I don't think they did at all.
They would not have described themselves as poor nor blind as you do.
Most of them volunteered to go to war and were proud and brave over and over again.
They were expected to go to war because they were men and that is what men did in time of war.
Those people who expected men to go to war were the poor living on the street, the maid scrubbing the doorstep, the manservant serving his master, the master and his "better" too.
Everyone expected men to go to war.
It was not a class thing as you attempt to make out.
Many officers who came from public schools straight into the war died bravely along with their men.

You belittle their bravery, fortitude and integrity by making out they fought because the aristocracy "made" them fight.

OK fair point, I did not make the point I was trying to. I would never belittle anyone's bravery from WW1 (as someone who fought in the first Gulf war, Bosnia, witnessed mass genocide in Rwanda and did 3 tours of NI in the early 90s) the problem I have was with the masters of WW1 (both sides) and the needless slaughter of men advancing in lines across flat fields like they did 800 years before. The people at the top were making terrible decisions but the brave men still followed orders (that includes many young officers as you rightly say). Also there was some terrific propaganda at home which really got people going. (this makes you want to sign up to protect these nice thatched cottages eh!). But you said it yourself everyone expected men to go to war and not that people made educated decisions as to the rights and wrongs before they signed up.

 

[JoceAndChris]

You may be right, but rest assured - there are folk here in this 'community' who will do their best to ensure that the lower orders continue to know their place, if posts like this are anything to go by.
I didn't say anything at the time - something which I now regret - but the unbelievably crass nature of that post (and others like it in the same thread) is an outrageous message for this forum to be sending out.
I appreciate that for many of the regular posters the forum is simply a chatroom where a particular clique can exchange 'in jokes' and banter, but it is read by many more people than actually post here, and they find such attitudes appalling. I was going to suggest this forum as a resource to a builder I know - but after seeing that thread I'm afraid I thought twice. Ok, he's 'only a builder', so perhaps it's surprising he can read without moving his lips, but his experience would have been useful.
Certainly I know that I'm not alone in becoming increasingly depressed by the message that this forum conveys. Is it that having the responsibility for an old house is simply another part of the 'Country Living' fantasy, and the snobbery is bought along with the shrubbery? Or am I merely being naive in thinking that the purpose of this forum was to serve as a resource for those who wanted to do the right thing for their old buildings?
Whatever the reason, it is a message that I find uncomfortable, which is why I tend not to post much here these days. If anyone does want advice, they can email me, but the sort of attitudes shown in that thread are not those with which I would choose to be associated. If I wanted to experience the parvenu prejudices of the Daily Mail I'd pick up a copy in my local newsagent's. I don't want to find them here.
For heaven's sake, if the members of the clique here must exhibit such crashing snobbery, they could at least do it with some wit and style:

Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved;
You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes
And I must have things daintily served.

Are the requisites all in the toilet?
The frills round the cutlets can wait
Till the girl has replenished the cruets
And switched on the logs in the grate.

It's ever so close in the lounge dear,
But the vestibule's comfy for tea
And Howard is riding on horseback
So do come and take some with me

Now here is a fork for your pastries
And do use the couch for your feet;
I know that I wanted to ask you-
Is trifle sufficient for sweet?

Milk and then just as it comes dear?
I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;
Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileys
With afternoon tea-cakes and scones.

Lovely poem Gervase, who's JB? But here we go again -do you not realise that a lot of the things I say are tongue-in-cheek? And others too?
If you'd read my posts you'd know my grandmother was a maid, both grandfathers - very working class - fought in WW1 and amazingly survived, and lived to be proud of their children "bettering themselves " as they put it. Why must you be so serious? You've said some pretty harsh things yourself too, about different sectors of society, things that shocked me and I found offputting when I first joined this forum. But knowing your style more now I accept your satirical, ironic bent, and enjoy it.

You can't expect people's political views to be the same on a forum of this nature, that's partly what makes it interesting.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Gervase - fair cop. I'm no fan of the delete button like some, but in this case you were right and it has been deleted.

Sarcasm is a particularly British class of humour, which doesn't always stand up out of context - as in this case. But we really shouldn't be too serious about everything.

I also suggest we resist the Orwellian urge to revisit and rewrite all of our historical posts - again because they exist in a context that may not travel easily.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I just find it slightly strange that Gervase finds it completely acceptable to express his own reverse snobbery in no uncertain terms, but the merest whiff of a right-wing view puts him in a hissy fit.

But each to their own.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Ah, now you're talking about irony, Joce - an even less well understood element of British humour than sarcasm.

:wink:

I laughed out loud at the "snobbery with the shrubbery" comment though - a magic soundbite!

 

[Cloudscape]

Some of people's reaction to Charles comes from inverted snobbery. But I digress, and I haven't started yet. :?

I flinched a bit at your admonishment, Gervase. I see totally what you're saying, but there are all kinds of snobbery. Like you, I feel that some people are fashionably doing the period-house thing (you say "Country Living fantasy"). I know people locally who are doing it. Some of them will do anything they want to their houses, even listed ones. But there's a kind of snobbery in saying that some people on PPUK aren't taking their period-house issues seriously enough.

I know you were joking when you said, "Ok, he's 'only a builder', so perhaps it's surprising he can read without moving his lips, but his experience would have been useful", but it doesn't read like a joke.

For me, the thread you linked to did go a bit far here and there. I know it has no place on this forum, but it's really mild compared to some of what's out there on the 'net. There are forums I no longer visit because the 'clique' has tipped towards right-wing extremism, or they are never actually on topic at all, or one or two obnoxious people dominate the place. The most outrageous things are typed and displayed for all to see.

What kind of people were being pilloried in that thread? The thread started being about 'chaps'... in an 'upper-class twit' way, then veered off to 'chavs'. There's a kind of balance in so far as everyone got insulted. But it all depends very much how you see society - classes side by side, or as a vertical "heirarchy".

If the thread is bad PR for PPUK, perhaps it should be removed. It was all completely off-topic, I think.

But it's pretty hard to stop people posting nonsense - of all kinds. There are some strong personalities here - some who take it too seriously, and some who don't take it seriously enough. There's all kinds of gaffs - not just the ones you point out. I still think PPUK could muddle by very nicely if we could all just try and get along and tolerate our differences.

Please get your builder to pop in. He might be more resilient than you think (my father spent all his working life on building sites).

 

[JoceAndChris]

The voice of reason. I need a nodding in agreement smiley.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Lovely poem Gervase, who's JB?

"Come friendly bombs, fall on Slough"...

 

[Schoolmarm]

Is everyone going to show off how common their family is by saying what their distant relatives are? :lol: :lol:



I am common by any standard, but particularly by the standards of this forum. I don't need to say what my Granny did or what my Dad's job was.

See, proof 8) DAD instead of FATHER.
And I read the Daily Mail.


And I don't think Gervase was indulging in any "reverse" snobbery or indeed any inverse snobbery.

Merely pointing out that it would be terribly embarassing to link to the forum these days. I too thought long and hard and didn't send someone here for the same reason.

 

[Cloudscape]

My father died a few weeks ago, and he was a builder (as was his father before him). They both spent a lot of their time on building sites... I'm living in one. :wink:

Actually... interesting point, Schoolmarm. He's known as Dad, but right now I'm referring to his relationship to me... 'Father'.

I'm not using his 'trade' to show how humble and common I am. My point was hastily made, before I went to have a bath , but what I meant was that I know builders and my father wouldn't have been the least bit perturbed by anything in the thread that Gervase linked to.

My dad had a great sense of humour.

Talking of which... most British comedy is about laughing at people - people from all walks of life and 'social classes', but mostly the people who are caricatures. Harry Enfield (for example) used to do Tim Nice-But-Dim (posh) and Wayne Slob (not so posh), quite apart from all the mixed messages conveyed in Loadsamoney. Carry On films tend to laugh at the silly posh people - usually played by Kenneth Williams of Hattie Jacques. Way back, you have John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett in a row, representing (and satirising) the classes. Such comedy is very much part of our culture.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Actually... interesting point, Schoolmarm. He's known as Dad, but right now I'm referring to his relationship to me... 'Father'.

See, that is because you are posh. :lol: :lol:

It is a posh site but it never used to be a cruel poking fun at the oiks site.
Which is why I dared to join in at the beginning even though everyone read better newspapers than me.

Editd to add, sorry about your father, I lost mine a couple of years ago and I miss him everyday.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Good point cloudscape about humour, and I did think for a while before submitting to the revisionist urge to delete the post. I think it is the first post I have ever deleted.

What tipped it I think, is the fact that the references you make are to caricatures of British class stereotypes, whereas the pic I posted was of a genuine wedding party from elsewhere on the net. There is a difference is personalising the joke. However, I think the essence of the thread - which pokes fun at both Chaps and Chavs - stands up OK.Whether it is way off topic for the forum is a different judgement. 8)

The British obsession with "class" really does puzzle other nations, and I think we ourselves often take it too seriously. I'm reminded of the two Ronnies sketch "I look up to him, and down on him" :lol:

'Marm - do you really think the site is "posh"? Save the "What Ho" thread which pokes fun at both ends of the spectrum, I can't think of (m)any threads that could be categorised as cruel "anti-oik". Maybe I'm displaying my inbuilt white, male, middle-class blinkers there and should book on a "diversity" course poste haste!

I guess owning a period property and caring for it places most of us above a "subsistence" income; but outside of that minimum threshold I think we have a very wide range of posters and properties.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Yes we do have a wide range of posters but I am probably at the bottom end :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry I didn't mean the site was posh and it sounds like an insult. Most posters are degree peeps or very talented and I love hearing their knowledge and wide experience on a number of subjects.(especially tools :twisted: and techniques)


I am not sure your post was the one being pointed at anyway. It was the chav one I thought.

We have lost a lot of heavyweights though. Bryan, Geoffrey, NT, Ev, people who were really knowledgable

 

[JoceAndChris]

But that was from DaveBrigg, who gives his life over to working in state schools!

Anyone could pick out isolated posts and say the forum is this that or the other - if you counted up the total number of posts made in the last 3 months and the number that could be perceived as "let's laugh at oiks" (and I really don't think any are that brutal) it would be a tiny fraction - though Gervase would probably argue they shouldn't be there at all.

I love to pretend to be posh, for me that's one of the glorious things about living in a period property, sundowners on the lawn, tweed caps in the porch. But anyone who really knows me couldn't accuse me of snobbery, I'll talk to absolutely anyone, it takes me ages to do the simplest errands because of all the chatting.

This is not the heart of the problem and everyone knows it - the real crux of the matter is the schism between nem-ites and non nem-ites: a schism that was there long before I ever joined this forum.

The amount she contributed was extraordinary, literally thousands of knowledgeable, researched posts and links. They are now missing, the tone of the forum has changed as someone like that is completely unique and irreplacable. I really don't want to get into the whole debate of whether she should have been expelled in the way she was, whether her crimes outweighed her contribution, but it's left a very bitter taste and a tide of anger from herself and her friends. I don't even need to say this, we all know it.

That this schism should carry away expertise is indeed incredibly sad. Gervase will be missed very, very much, by me and everyone I'm sure.

 

[biffvernon]

But it's pretty hard to stop people posting nonsense - of all kinds.

But easy to avoid posting nonsense oneself. (Mostly.) The signal to noise ratio round here has certainly gone down recently and I guess I only read 10% of the posts - I totally missed whatever Gervase was moaning about.

However, it's good to have a little nonsense. I am of course an aristocrat. The first Vernon on these isles was William the Norman's right hand man. He was given Surrey for his troubles in 1066. Seems like it's been downhill ever since as I don't appear to own Surrey.