Period Extensions - Again

[Flyfisher]

Further to the recent discussion on the same topic (http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13205), I didn't join in at the time because I was waiting for my own LBC application for a kitchen extension to be approved, so I thought I'd keep my head down. But consent was granted last week so I thought it would be interesting to gather some wider opinions. Be gentle with me. :wink:

Some background first. The drawing below shows the rear of the house as it currently exists:



It's a C16 timber-frame building with a C17 extension to the left and a dog-leg stair outshot to the right, also believed to be C17. The chimney stack addition is also believed to be C17. The front of the house has also been significantly altered with the insertion of large sash windows and both the internal ground floor rooms have been 'dry-lined' with lath and plaster, completely hiding the original oak timber frame, and the rear of the house has also had 'new' windows installed, involving quite drastic alteratins to the frame - basically a fairly major 'Georgian' style makeover.

The house suffered from many years of neglect and a leaking roof (now repaired) but the outshot structure is completely derelict and beyond repair. Fortunately the stairs within remain in good condition. Because of all the previous works to the timber frame, the original wattle-and-daub has been lost and the inner walls are plasterboard and the outer walls are lath-and-cement render (the white areas) or cement render over bricks (between the exposed timbers). The thermal performance is thus little better than a decent tent!

An important part of the plan for saving the house is to relocate the kitchen to this end of the house and approval for this was granted in a previous LBC application. However, during the detailed planning of this work, it became apparent that it would be difficult to achieve this without imposing a lot of changes to the interior layout of the original house. There was also the question of where to locate all the heating and DHW services and how to improve the thermal performance of the house. Because the stairwell outshot had to be completely rebuilt anyway, consideration was given to extending this beyond the gable wall to provide space for boiler and DHW services, but this was discounted as being too 'messy'.

It was then suggested to extend the stairwell outshot along the rear of the house to accomodate the services, but it quickly became apparent that it could be extended even further to provide a whole new space for the new kitchen. This would solve all the problems being wrestled with:
- preserves the original layout of the house
- the new kitchen is in a new space
- new services in a new space to the left of the chimney stack
- the new extension would provide complete protection for the original fabric
- the new extension would provide a modern construction to current thermal performance standards
- the original fabric would remain undisturbed by any need to improve its thermal performance
- the original fabric would remain visible within the new extension
- only the existing (non-original) window to the left of the outshot would be removed to provide access to the new kitchen
- none of the other existing windows would need to be altered to improve thermal performance as they would become internal windows

After much discussion and consultation, the following design was proposed:



Because the house is G2* listed, LBC applications are passed to English Heritage and the Secretary of State as well as the local council conservation officer, so the basic design concept was submitted to EH for pre-application advice and they visited the site a number of times. The CO has also visited the site on numerous occasions during the past few years of more basic repair works, so is very familiar with the whole project, but this was the first really significant alteration to be proposed as part of regenerating the house as a family home.

I won't bore you anymore with the details of the pre-application discussions, which were not always smooth sailing. Suffice to say that EH was not initially supportive but after nearly eight months of visits and discussions and documents and letters they came around to agreeing with the merits of the proposal and subsequently supported the LBC application with no significant amendments. I could start another topic on what a complete waste of time this was (because nothing was changed) and how it will cost me many £1000s because of the VAT changes in the last budget, but that's now water under the bridge. I will just say, though, that I've been left wondering about the value of having a second tier of heritage management.

Apologies for the long post, but I thought the background might be of interest and provide some context for any comments.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

That's, in its essentials, the design I think I would have suggested on the information available, except that I'd propose a continuous strip of rooflight about 1-2 metres or so wide just below the existing eaves level, to my mind a neater arrangement than three big rooflights.

 

[Flyfisher]

Interesting point about the roof lights, Gareth. We went through a few iterations during the planning. The left and centre lights are positioned to align with and admit light to the existing first floor windows as well as to the new ground floor space. Also, the existing window to the left of the stack is a bedroom window and we didn't want to completely lose the view to the rear garden. We did consider inverted dormers around the first floor windows, but felt the rooflights looked better - plus they meant that there was no need to rework the windows for draughtproofing (you should see the gaps around the middle windows!) or thermal performance. The right-hand light was added for balance and to provide a level lof visibility of the exposed timbers from the outside the house.

I'm pleased to hear you generally approve of the concept though.

Incidentally, the new kitchen area extends to where the walls steps back slightly, at which point there is an internal wall and door to a cloakroom and 'plant room' where all the services will be located.

Another advantage of the design is that none of the new kitchen pipework needs to impinge on the existing fabric and much of the new CH pipework for the existing rooms can be routed from the 'outside' of the existing house, thus minimising internal disruption.

 

[CliffordPope]

Sorry, but it's horrible! You might just as well clad it in fake stone.

 

[Flyfisher]

That was our first idea, but the CO wouldn't wear it. :wink:

 

[andrew gayton]

*cough* :wink:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Well it is rather heavy to wear, even fake stone. How diminutive is your CO?

 

[robgil]

I would only wear real stones myself, I would put the fake ones in the bin , if I still had a bin.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

I would only wear real stones myself, I would put the fake ones in the bin , if I still had a bin.

:lol:

 

[angrybird]

I would only wear real stones myself, I would put the fake ones in the bin , if I still had a bin.

I think i've found the guy that stole your bin.....

 

[tobydog]

FF - given how much effort went into writing your new thread, it sure went off topic pretty quick.

I'm very surprised that you were allowed to cover up a GII* building in that manner. Not seen it done like that before except for when the external wall being covered is pretty plain. From the image you've given, yours looks like the upper level is jettied. Only time will tell but I personally would find such an grand but imposing structure too overwhelming to have 'indoors'. I think there will be too much going on particularly in the vaulted ceiling. Just a personal view.

Photos would be good now that you have permission.

 

[Feltwell]

Only a brief reply (as only on t'interweb via a Blackberry at the mo) but wanted to sound a note of support. Extending old buildings can be hugely controversial but what you're doing there preserves what was there originally and strikes me as just another part of the story of an already substantially altered house - adding a new chapter without removing any old ones!

My only note of caution - it's just you & Mrs FF (FF Junior presumably at an age where he's likely to move out and do his own thing in the not-to-distant) - is that right? If so, do you *really* need the extra space?

 

[andrew gayton]

I would suggest that this proposal does a number of things very well, the most important being to conserve the existing framed walling whilst doing very little to it. To repair the walling to enable it to remain in an external situation would involve massive intervention to ensure its long term survival - more restoration than conservation. Also, as stated by F.F, this extension also allows the existing spaces within the building to remain as they exist.

 

[Lime]

Extending old buildings can be hugely controversial but what you're doing there preserves what was there originally and strikes me as just another part of the story of an already substantially altered house - adding a new chapter without removing any old ones!

Yes, you have a point.
However it is yet another old house "done up" like a new one so to all intents and purposes it looks modern.

 

[tobydog]

FF - despite my somewhat negative view on what you have done and how it would work for me personally, I should have added (as many others have) that the many positives in what you are doing are excellent. One of the reasons we had an extension 'linked' to the old structure was to preserve what we had and minimise 'damage'. I like walking from old to new and back. Bit like a time machine.

In some ways, if I had to do this, I might have opened yours up with more glass, maybe across the majority of the lower elevation of the extension to offset the internal impact of the old structure. I can see that you (or EH) are trying to hang onto as much of a traditional look as possible but it could end up looking like a compromise which would niggle me.

 

[andrew gayton]

internal plant, fittings and fixture in a space that is to be used to service the house dictated to a certain extent the amount of solid walling that was required. The 'glass box' approach to extensions tends to work in the pages of glossy architectural journals, but the reality of transparency and living in a space on a day-to-day basis often results in higher levels of visual clutter which in my opinion is less attractive in such instances when compared to the solidity of more traditional forms of walling.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm very surprised that you were allowed to cover up a GII* building in that manner. Not seen it done like that before except for when the external wall being covered is pretty plain. From the image you've given, yours looks like the upper level is jettied. Only time will tell but I personally would find such an grand but imposing structure too overwhelming to have 'indoors'. I think there will be too much going on particularly in the vaulted ceiling. Just a personal view.

One thing I didn't mention is that there was already a single-storey, flat roof extension to the rear, which wrapped around the stack and covered all the ground floor exposed timbers (1930s we believe). Indeed the nail marks from the lath&render is visible on the external beams (I'll try to sort out some photos later), so very little of the timber frame has been visible (Tte front of the house is entirely rendered and is thus "pretty plain").

The upper level is slightly jettied and you make an interesting point about how imposing the original wall may be when it becomes an indoor wall. It will, of course, only be visible from the new kitchen area and I'm hoping it will be more impressive than imposing.

 

[tobydog]

I agree and would certainly never advocate a 'glass box'. I think they look awful on any building and I couldn't live in the environment required to have one. In hindsight I can see that the new back wall is probably the only area where you could fit the majority of units unless you have a huge central working island.

I would just need more light to offset the impact of the external wall, particularly if the timbers remain dark. In addition one also needs to consider the loss of light to the existing building which, in many cases with these old houses, is already limited.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Although FF in characteristic eloquent form has had a really good stab at explaining the context and the plan, having visited I can safely say his drawing indicates a lot of the old charm of the building will be obliterated, whereas it won't be. FF, please post pics of the ( huge) sections where the kitchen extension won't be seen. The interior, also, is so special I can really understand that you wouldn't want to go smashing and pipe laying for the necessaries. Also he modestly refrains from saying that this is a seriously huge house ( 14 bedrooms if you used the roof space?) with currently a very small simple little kitchen, not what you'd expect in such a property at all.

The new extension is going to provide a welcoming, modern, family feel type room with views of the lakes - am I right? It would be better if it didn't need to be built, consequently covering up that beautiful facade, but if you are going to drag the building into the 21st C, I agree that is the best way to do it rather than chopping up all the amazing features inside. It's a good compromise, and I like the design - which will of course be improved by using traditional materials.

The alternative to FF saving this house and converting it to a modern family home would be for it to be swallowed up by a business usage and they wouldn't, most likely, have bothered with necessary permissions or consultations with EH and CO and ruined it forever inside and out.

 

[Flyfisher]

Only a brief reply (as only on t'interweb via a Blackberry at the mo) but wanted to sound a note of support. Extending old buildings can be hugely controversial but what you're doing there preserves what was there originally and strikes me as just another part of the story of an already substantially altered house - adding a new chapter without removing any old ones!

We certainly see this as adding a new chapter to the history ofthe house and you're absolutely right about it already having been extensively altered over the centuries, including some fairly drastic hacking about of the original timber frame to insert new windows and completely remodel the external and internal appearance of the house. In many respects, its historical significance is more as a record of how people changed such houses over the centuries rather than as a finely preserved example of any particular style or construction technique. Adding a new chapter without removing any old ones is a good description of what we're trying to do.

My only note of caution - it's just you & Mrs FF (FF Junior presumably at an age where he's likely to move out and do his own thing in the not-to-distant) - is that right? If so, do you *really* need the extra space?

This is a fair point. We don't 'need' the additional space and it was never our original intention to extend, hence the previous LBC application to move the kitchen into the existing ground floor room. But as things progressed, this design evolved to solve so many of the issues we were grappling with and we especially like the fact that intervention to the existing fabric (which would have not only been somewhat destructive but also fairly tricky and expensive in its own right) is almost totally eliminated. So it's odd to think of the extra space as being a bit of an unexpected bonus, but that's the way it has turned out.

I should also add that it's not just us rattling around in a big old house - if it was, I seriously doubt we'd have taken it on. My parents live in the completely self-contained other half of the house, so it's a genuinely multi-generation family home (although it's more like living next door than living with, if you see what I mean). Indeed, the very fact that the other half of the house is so self-contained is a prime contributory factor for this half of the house being in such poor condition, because it was so rarely used for the past couple of decades and as it fell into disrepair there was no incentive to fix things. Thus trivial matters like slipped tiles were left unrepaired, leading to water dripping through the ceilings for many years. This is the reason why the rear stairs outshot is so derelict and beyond repair. Fortunately, I think we've caught it in time but it's a salutory lesson about how empty houses can decay so quickly.