Period Drainage

[malcolm]

It might not be an arch at all as I can only see the very top. I'm not sure about foundation depth. While digging the trench outside we found an earth filled void under part of the wall and promptly stopped digging. The arch is quite close to the drain so I'll have a look from the outside to see if there are any more clues when I dig down.

I'm becoming baffled more than gaining any understanding of that corner of the building as I strip the various modern cements and plasters from the brickwork. I think the kitchen must have spent more time being modified over and over again than it has serving as a working kitchen.

The trench around the outside dug to lower ground levels seems to have worked well. Behind the impervious plaster the brickwork is only wet where the trench is bridged by drains in one corner and a gas meter on another wall. I recall thinking I ought to do something about them when the trench was dug in the first place.

 

[malcolm]

I tried digging down to see if there were any inspection covers under the concrete. There weren't but there was some evidence of a manhole and flaunching having been there in the past along with a lot of broken ceramic from a previous drainage system.

It appears that the drains have been replaced at some point without including any sort of access to rod the kitchen drain. The pipe also appears to be broken just under the concrete in the photo which probably accounts for much of the damp in that corner of the kitchen. Being not very period at all would explain the drainage issue - you wouldn't really expect a decent job if it had been done in the last 50 years.

The area needed a bit of a tidy up anyway. I shall redesign. Though I don't know the first thing about drainage so some research needed.

 

[Penners]

This might be useful:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJn_aGX4PJ0

 

[Zebra]

Ha! Gosh Malcolm, you don't hang about! I was privileged enough to have been standing in that very spot, just the day before this photo was taken, and the malcolm project is very interesting, particularly the timber framed wall with wattle and daub infill, in the kitchen.
I unfortunately don't have anything to add about the drainage, just wanted to say Ha!

 

[Flyfisher]

I shall redesign. Though I don't know the first thing about drainage so some research needed.

This is a very informative website (and not just for drainage): http://www.pavingexpert.com/drainage.htm

 

[mattice]

If I ever changed career, it would be in drainage :wink: There's something strangely satisfying about hand digging trenches, even better if through concrete, figuring out where everything joins up (or doesn't), and replacing it with lovely clean, plastic pipe, nice inspection chambers, beautiful rodding points, superb back rodded gully's, smooth gradients. The first time you put something down it, that feeling of relief and satisfaction. Only to fill it all in again for no-one to appreciate your efforts :lol:

In all seriousness, paving expert gave me enough info to relay a lot of my drainage. Carefully plan layout and gradients, don't skimp on the pea gravel, and enjoy adults meccano! It's not rocket science, but you would think so when you receive quotes. Shop online for the pipe, don't buy from the sheds, I saved 100's. Rather than replace all of your clay pipe, flo plast do some good clay to plastic adapters. Good luck, you'll have it done next weekend!

 

[Penners]

There's something strangely satisfying about hand digging trenches, even better if through concrete

I suppose it takes all sorts... :?

 

[malcolm]

The Paving Expert website is useful. It looks like it might be a plan to install an inspection chamber then replace the hopper (and the nearby yard drain gulley which is also blocked and inaccessible).

The internal floor level is 200mm lower than external ground level so ideally I would lower the gulley to 275mm below external ground level (it can go in the bottom of the trench I dug around the house) which would put the water level in the trap at about 400mm below ground level. The top of the foul drain is about 400mm below ground level. I can't find the rules and regs for this - as long as there is the correct fall from the outlet of the P trap to the foul drain I should be OK?

I'm not sure I really fancy doing the job myself, but I probably will.

 

[Penners]

I'm not sure I really fancy doing the job myself, but I probably will.

Just remember, Malcolm - the more unpleasant and back-breaking the job, the greater the level of satisfaction when you've finished it.

 

[malcolm]

I decided to dig a little more. I can always procrastinate later. It looks like the kitchen hopper was connected in a reasonable manner just without any rodding access. Someone later on installed the yard drain presumably by smashing through the existing pipe then chugging up with concrete and that join is where all the tree roots are.

I found another drain running parallel which is inconvenient as it will be in the way. It has Doulton written on the side. I think it might be part of an old surface water drainage system which we tried to clear at a point near the road but found it completely clogged.

 

[Lime]

My advice for what it's worth.
Don't assume the unknown pipe does not do anything or is not able to fill the trench with water (or worst) if broken.
The set up you have is almost ideal for a modern PVC access chamber.
Use a disc cutter to chop through the main pipe to create a nice clean break.
I'd replace the kitchen p-trap with an s-trap and thread its pipe towards the access chamber under the unknown pipe leaving it intact.

 

[malcolm]

I was thinking about chopping a little hole in the top of the mystery pipe to see what is in there. I've traced every drain apart from the urinals which have always been blocked and the levels are too high for it to be anything to do with neighbours.

It is a worry though. I'll probably go for a plastic inspection chamber. I have two drain pipes, a kitchen drain and a bathroom drain in the current hopper. They seem to do things differently these days and the plaatic hoppers they make are too small. I'm thinking about putting two hoppers in rather than messing around too much with downpipes.

 

[Lime]

I was thinking about chopping a little hole in the top of the mystery pipe to see what is in there. I've traced every drain apart from the urinals which have always been blocked and the levels are too high for it to be anything to do with neighbours.

It is a worry though. I'll probably go for a plastic inspection chamber. I have two drain pipes, a kitchen drain and a bathroom drain in the current hopper. They seem to do things differently these days and the plaatic hoppers they make are too small. I'm thinking about putting two hoppers in rather than messing around too much with downpipes.

You're adventurous, I'll say that!

Why not do away with the hopper and trapped gulley completely and run a 4 inch pipe up the wall?
The kitchen and bathroom can be directly connected to it.
No splash or smells and neater where it meets the ground.

 

[malcolm]

I thought about that but it would need to be cast iron to keep conservation happy which would make it expensive. I'm getting good at preserving existing rainwater drainage.

I have a cast iron hopper and downpipe serving the upstairs bathroom and a neat aluminium downpipe for the rainwater and would like to keep them if I can figure out how to extend them. That only leaves the kitchen waste which will become tidier when I do the kitchen, and a second gutter downpipe which might well move to a different gulley.

 

[Penners]

Why not do away with the hopper and trapped gulley completely and run a 4 inch pipe up the wall?
The kitchen and bathroom can be directly connected to it.
No splash or smells and neater where it meets the ground.

That's regarded as rather an old-fashioned way of doing the job, but I completely agree with Lime. It's by far the best solution.

 

[MatthewC]

I thought about that but it would need to be cast iron to keep conservation happy which would make it expensive. I'm getting good at preserving existing rainwater drainage.

I didn't think that Conservation were overly interested in what you fit below ground? They had no desire to make me fit old stuff, so all my cast iron downpipes go into plastic drains.

 

[malcolm]

I'm guessing your downpipes drain into hoppers or gullys which have traps and water sits in the bottom? That's how mine are. It seems from the 1950s it became popular to use a stack with no trap in the bottom but vented above roof height which sounds neat and sensible as it gets rid of standing water. I can't see any cost effective way to do that these days without using plastic pipe for the stack and I would prefer to avoid that.

Unless people were suggesting something else? It takes me as much time figuring out how to do things than actually doing them.

 

[Penners]

It takes me as much time figuring out how to do things than actually doing them.

Don't regard your figuring-out time as wasted. It's an opportunity to have another cuppa and Kit-Kat.

 

[DJH]

You could do away with trapped gulleys and use bends instead with Waste Pipe Adaptors to take the waste pipe using a tee with an access cap for rodding on the waste pipe and an automatic air admittance valve inside the house under the sink or basin.

http://www.polypipe.com/building-products/products/below-ground-drainage/underground-drainage-adaptors


Doug

 

[Penners]

an automatic air admittance valve inside the house under the sink or basin.

Always remembering that the air admittance valve must be above the highest level of water that drains into that pipe.