Onto dining room - rewire before ceiling repair?

[JoceAndChris]

I think I'll call out a plasterer who's experienced with lime, etc to look at whether the dining room ceiling could stand up to a light skim. Should the wiring be in place first, dangling through the hole in readiness for a ceiling rose and chandelier? ( no wiring in the ceiling at present)

For those interested in decorative schemes, I think it's going to be Farrow and Ball's St Antoine in this colour: http://www.farrow-ball.com/the-st-antoine-papers-bp-920///fcp-product/200920 with the ceiling in "string", the woodwork in "Cord" and silver coloured Baroque light fittings- though Chris is very smitten with the various antler light fittings around. ( The amusing "Deer Damask" by Rockett St George was also a strong contender but ultimately too much like Christmas wrapping paper) Chris has been very vociferous in reminding me that I always said he could have his way with the dining room, allowing blood red colour, guns, taxidermy, and tweed curtains. I'm going to have to submit like a good wife and get my revenge elsewhere. Peach and gold and Chinoiserie cherubs for the drawing room, I think, and the TV hidden by theatrical curtains with ropes and swags and tails and tassels. (thanks for that idea, Gareth, and many others - which, alas, I don't have enough rooms for!)

 

[MdB]

IF the wire + any other supports for the light can be fitted after the skim, then the plasterer would prefer it to be fitted after as having a wire dangling in the way is a pain. HOWEVER, if fitting the wire and supports (such as extra noggins) is likely to damage the ceiling, obviously it would be better to fit first and then skim. The last thing you want is to have to fill new screw holes after having the ceiling done and it isn't too difficult to skim around wires (at least it isn't with the pink stuff - I've not tried with lime )

 

[Penners]

If there's no cable there for the light at present, then I would definitely get this done first.

I can't remember whether the chickens' bedroom above extends over the dining room - I suspect not. Anyway, whether by lifting a floorboard or two, or from unfloored attic space, if there's access to the centre of the dining room ceiling from above then the electrician shouldn't have too much of a problem dropping in a central cable for the chandelier.

If there's no access from above, then the electrician is going to have "fish" (that's what they call it) for the cable, to run it from the nearest convenient connection. This runs more of a risk of damage to plasterwork, although it all depends on where he can find a lighting circuit connection.

Don't forget the cable drops for switches, too. (I use the plural because I'm assuming you'll have the chanelier two-way switched, with switches by the music room and hall doors?) They could cause some plaster damage, unless you're prepared to have surface trunking (which I think you'd hate).

And while the ceiling cable is being installed, be sure to have a look at the ceiling joists to be sure that they are (a) sufficiently strong, and (b) conveniently placed to enable the ceiling rose and the chandelier to be suspended from them. If they're not, then that's the time to install extra joists or noggins, rather than after the plastering has been done.

 

[Nigel Watts]

I have recently been looking at F&B papers. The ones I saw were block printed (rare in all but top-end hand printed papers, most of which have to be made to order) and have a very nice texture. The only downside seemed to be the limited colour combinations. Most seemed to b a single colour bock printed onto single coloured ground. This gives a rather mid 18th C feel rather than an early 19th one, where one would expect more colourways.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thank you, marvellous Ppukers, all that is superbly helpful. Wiring first then. There is good access in the loft space, for a slim man, and Penners is right that the chickens' bedroom isnt immediately above the dining room - just as well - think how brandy and cigars would be disturbed by the evening roost! I think the joists and timbers are all sound and good and suitable for supporting a chandelier and rose but will have them checked.


Nigel- I sort of know what you mean about the lack of colourways. I say that because I'm sat here with the St Antoine book that my supplier has lent me (so beautiful), and working through the FnB paint chart, I can see that not all colours are represented. I'd have steered Chris towards Book Room Red if it had been available, rather than the darker Eating Room Red. I like the self colour where the pattern is barely perceptible, it will allow for a tweed curtain, in string and red, where a bolder pattern wouldn't. The quality of the papers is lovely - don't know if you can recall the music room but that's St Germain in Green Ground. I love the thickness, and the texture of them. I just wish they did matching fabrics.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Peach and gold and Chinoiserie cherubs for the drawing room, I think, and the TV hidden by theatrical curtains with ropes and swags and tails and tassels. (thanks for that idea, Gareth, and many others - which, alas, I don't have enough rooms for!)

I know I suggested the curtains, but peach and gold is not something I recall discussing?

 

[Penners]

the TV hidden by theatrical curtains with ropes and swags and tails and tassels. (thanks for that idea, Gareth, and many others - which, alas, I don't have enough rooms for!)

Oh, come along! Nothing less than a full proscenium arch will do for the television, surely? Don't neglect to fit a fireproof safety curtain, which has by law to be lowered during the interval.

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol: :lol: :lol: what a perfect idea! And a girl, in a short skirt, always selling ice creams

No Gareth, we didn't discuss it. Peach and gold has occurred to me this morning whilst looking at this wallpaper book. You did say, though, that the Oval Room blue would be too cold, and I think you're right.

 

[Schoolmarm]

How will skim stick to the painted woodchip? Will it not all just peel off in huge chunks?

 

[Penners]

Good point, 'Marm. I'd forgotten about the woodchip. I reckon that'll have to come off first (unless the professional plasterer says otherwise - in which case it becomes his responsibility).

 

[JoceAndChris]

When we had a new kitchen and bathroom done in our London flat they just skimmed over the old textured ceilings, I was horrified, but it's all held firm. The ceiling is an experiment, it might fall down in places - I suppose that's a risk with old houses.

I could just paint over the woodchip, but I think the texture a terrible clash with an ornate ceiling rose, which draws the eye to the ceiling.

I could ditch the idea of a ceiling rose and chandelier, but I'd feel it was a compromise - and that blood red is so dark, it needs sparkling light to enliven it.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Textured ceilings are different than soft paper over bits of wood and painted with silk vinyl though. Can you be bothered scraping all the wood off? That might help water to get to the bit necessary to soften and remove the rest of the paper.

 

[Flyfisher]

Don't ditch the chandelier Joce, I'm sure you'd regret the compromise and that will forever taint your enjoyment of what will be a lovely dining room. If you're thinking about a new skim over the ceiling then I don't think there's any reason to leave the woodchip in place. I thought the only reason you were even considering leaving it was the possibility of bringing down the odd bit of old plaster (which is certainly a risk), but if you're planning on getting in a plasterer then they'd be able to repair any such gaps before the final skim anyway.

As for the wiring, I would want that all finished before plastering. Any stubs of wire can easily be wound up into the ceiling and/or wall switches for plastering and anyway, plasterers generally work in such conditions so I'd be surprised if it was a problem. Plus, it can only be a good thing if you can avoid lots of crawling around above the newly plastered ceiling. In general, I tend to think of plastering almost as the first part of the decoration process - at least, that's my excuse for not having started mine yet. :wink:

Frankly, I suspect that finding a good lime plasterer locally will be your biggest challenge, otherwise it should all be fairly straightforward. And exciting, as you can then unleash your colour scheme!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks for all your kind advice and comments FF. ( and lovely that you've seen the ceiling I'm on about during your visit last week, which I enjoyed so much).

I grew so confused about how to tackle this ceiling that I decided to speak to a lime plasterer about it. I found the very nice Ricky, at masterplasteruk.com, based in Cambridge, who'd be prepared to spend 2-3 days on the ceiling - that's doing the wiring, removing the woodchip, making good the holes with lime plaster. Cost - £1000. If I were to strip the woodchip myself ( which would be horrid - he said you can't use steam, only a scraper and minimum hot water) it would only take £175 off the cost.

And 'marm, you were right when you said lime plaster wouldn't adhere to woodchip, he said the same.

I can see why no-one's ever bothered to maintain these ceilings or get them wired- such a costly business.

I guess that means the wallpaper won't be going up until 2011.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh God, I forgot to ask Ricky about his build. But how do you ask someone about their physique charmingly - especially when you've just told them they can stay the night !!!

 

[Pford75]

Some random thoughts....

1. Do bear in mind that strictly speaking, your electrical work should only be carried out by a 'Part P' certified expert.

2. Make sure the person doing the work understands that you intend to fit a chandelier. Firstly, they can situate the cable near a joist (although personally, we've put noggins between joists and then bolted through the noggin to provide a heavyweight fixing for chandeliers)...but also, your chandelier may have several bulb fittings...this in turn could have an impact on the circuit load (our dining room used to have 2 single bulb pendants and now has 2 18 bulb chandeliers....this meant an upgrade on the circuit and the switches)

3. Not sure why he advised against steaming the woodchip - I've successfully steamed painted woodchip...although steaming ceilings can be a horrible/painful job.

 

[MdB]

1) An extra light (outside bathroom / kitchen) can be done by anybody. It still needs to meet the regs but I believe you don't have to be Part P to do it.

2) Agreed. What power rating is the chandelier Joce?

3) I guess the danger is blowing the current plaster off. I've removed 80% of the plaster from a wall with a steamer - the last 20% was of course a real pain to remove.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Pford- 2 18 bulb chandeliers! ! ! Not fair! (gorgeous though) Our single chandelier will have 5 bulbs - the room is only 15 sq m. Not sure what power it requires MdB.

Thanks for all the thoughts re wiring, Chris has cut holes and wired up 5 chandeliers to date but you'll be pleased to hear he is at last giving up. I think there's plenty of support for a little chandelier.

My main concern is that whoever does the work keeps their feet on the joists and not on the reed ceilings as I think they'd just go through.

The plasterer said it's inadvisable to use steam on old lime plaster on reed. In places the woodchip appears to be holding the ceiling up.

 

[MdB]

Not sure what power it requires MdB.

What is the rating for each bulb? 20W? 50W?

Thanks for all the thoughts re wiring, Chris has cut holes and wired up 5 chandeliers to date but you'll be pleased to hear he is at last giving up. I think there's plenty of support for a little chandelier.

Again, it would be useful to know what rating bulbs they are. If you have fitted 5 x 5 bulbs x 50W then you have added 1.2kW to potentially a single lighting circuit which is too much. If they are 20W each on multiple lighting circuits then this is more reasonable.

 

[Flyfisher]

1. Do bear in mind that strictly speaking, your electrical work should only be carried out by a 'Part P' certified expert.

Isn't the actual situation that all electrical work must be compliant with the relevant regs and that most works (MdB mentioned some exceptions) must be certified?

As I understand things, anyone ("competent" or not - but obviously it's unadvisable to do anything if you're not sure what you're doing!) can do any electrical work but the end result must be certified, either via building control or by a certified electrician.

This is the approach I've taken with some recent electrical works. I discussed what I intended to do with a certified electrican, he confirmed it was correct, I've done it (and it all seems to work!) and he's going to come out in the next few weeks to change a consumer unit and certify the entire works.

I think this is different to gas installations, where I believe it's not legal for an unqualified person (used to be Corgi-registered) to even open up a gas boiler.