New Wiring Regulations

[Flyfisher]

I've been told that, under the new wiring regs, if any new work is undertaken then the whole wiring to the house has to be brought into line with the new regs, i.e. the new regs apply retrospectively. To my knowledge, this would be the first time that new wiring regs have been applied this way. Is this really true, or is our electrician trying it on?

One specific thing mentioned was that the new regs include things like specifying the number of sockets in each room, which I can understand for a new build but I find it hard to believe this must be implemented retrospectively.

The existing wiring is certainly not up to latest regs and is frankly a bit of a mess, but it is plastic (mostly, I think!) and does work and is just about adequte as it stands. But we're planning a new kitchen and this will require new wiring to be installed (existing room has only one single 13A socket!). I had assumed this could be done as two completely new circuits (cooker and ring-main) without touching any of the existing wiring.

I also believe it is OK to do all the wiring yourself as long as the final installation is independently certified. However, if I get someone in to certify my work, will they look only at me new wiring or will they treat the whole house as one installation and then refuse to certify it because parts of the installeion does not comply with the latest regs?

 

[Gervase]

There is notifiable and non-notifiable work under Part P of the buildng regs.
Non-notifiable includes:
Work consisting of:
Replacing accessories such as socket outlets, control switches and ceiling roses
Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, i.e. by fire, rodent or impact
Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations.
Work that is not in a kitchen or special location, and does not involve a special installation and consists of:
Adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit
Adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit
Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding.

Work with is notifiable includes:
special locations and installations:
Locations containing a bath, shower or basin
Swimming pools or paddling pools
Hot air saunas
Electric floor or ceiling heating systems
Garden lighting or power installations
Solar photovoltaic (PV) power supply systems
Small scale generators such as micro CHP units
Extra-low voltage lighting installations, other than pre-assembled, CE-marked lighting sets.

Thus your sparky was being a bit doom-and-gloomy! There is a more details run-down at http://wiki.diynot.com/electricsart_p:diy_electrical_work_and_the_law

 

[Flyfisher]

So any new work, whether notifiable or not, has no effect on the reqirements of the existing system?

And how would a competent person actually certify just the new part of a house wiring installation? Would the certificate just state "all wiring connected to fuse number n is compliant to xx edition of IEE wiring regs", or something like that?

 

[Gervase]

Part P does stress that it's new electrical work which is covered, so it's unlikely that the old wiring will be inspected as a whole. However, if an inspection reveals anything which is clearly unsafe, one would expect the inspector to tell you. And, naturally, anything coming from an existing circuit or consumer unit will require testing all the way back to that consumer unit, which may bring in existing wiring.

If you want to do the work yourself you submit a Building Notice to your local authority and they will either send an inspector around before the wiring is covered up or expect you to furnish a certificate signed by a 'competent person' (essentially a sparks who hold the Part P certification). They can then sign off the work.

 

[Philip]

I am in a similar position of having a mix of old and new wiring. I have been advised that if you mix the old colour cable with the new unified colours your fuse box/MCB Junction box should have a lable to indicate this. I have seen these labels through one of the electrical supplies websites ? TLC electrics?. This would seem to indicate that it is not necessary to replace wiring in its totallity.

I also believe that the local council building control department will appoint an electrician to certify your handiwork.

 

[Flyfisher]

That all seems eminently sensible. I didn't really believe the existing installation would need to be upgraded, but I didn't have the facts to hand when talking to the builder.

Given the mess in our current 'consumer cupboard' I'm thinking of installing a completely new consumer unit to feed the kitchen wiring and then getting in a competent person to inspect, certify and connect the new consumer unit to the meter, thereby making it completely separate from any exxisting wiring.

Presumably it will become increasingly common for existing homes to have only partly-certified wiring installations as new work is carried out.

As an aside, have any DIYers considered taking a 'competent persons' course. As I'm contemplating a fairly big project I wonder if this would be worthwhile?

 

[tony]

if your old wiring is in poor condition and you are thinking about electrically extending the installation.Wait.

First get an electrician or determine if you have a tt, tns tncs system, as the type will make a difference to future posts.

How old is the electrical wiring, is it lead rubber or pvc sheathed cables, if you take a light switch off from the wall is there a earth wire what colour is it sleeved in.
do you have main water bond and gas if you have gas, do you have supplementry bonding in the bathroom.

is your fuse box/consumer unit rewireable fuses, cartdridge fuses or mcbs do you have a rcd?

part p is only england and wales not scotland.

more info would help

regards

tony

 

[Flyfisher]

I won't be doing any work too soon, there's plenty of more fundamental things to fix first, like the rook and guttering for a start.

I suspect the system is TT because I've not noticed any separate earthing rods etc, but I take the point about getting it properly checked out.

The original wiring was rubber in conduit. I think this has all been replaced with plastic; some being run through the existing conduit, some being laid under the floors and quite a lot just clipped to the exposed beams. Not sure when this was done, although I remember some work being done about 20 years ago (I've known the property for a long time).

There is no gas. Earth bonding is probably an issue, the main bathroom hasn't been changed for over 40 years.

All the fuses and consumer units are located in a large cupboard and there are loads of them. There are wired and cartridge fuses. I think there are also some mcbs. There is definitely an rcd - it occasionally trips in really heavy rain (!), but I don't think it feeds the entire installation.

 

[Flyfisher]

This might help visualise the wiring challenge!
http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/4854249

 

[tony]

so many small fuseboards with no main point of isolation, so theres a no no.

It does look in poor condition, phone around some electricians and ask them to do a periodic inspection report(PIR), this will give you a better picture of the installation.

If its a tt system you need earth rods

cant see it, cant hear it, cant smell it so electricity is quite dangerous.
regards

tony

 

[Flyfisher]

I thought about a PIR but am worried about the insurance implications. If we don't 'know' about a wiring problem then we don't have to tell anyone. If we get a formal report pointing out problems then we'll be forced to get everything fixed.

My latest estimate for complete re-wiring and re-plumbing is £95k. I'm waiting for a breakdown, but even if the wiring is only 25% then I'm looking at the thick end of £25k. Nightmare!

 

[tony]

25 K for a rewire, thats a bit steep.

how many bedroom, reception rooms,bathrooms,dining kitchen, utility etc.

you could employ a electrician thru a agency, making sure they send you a decent one with current qualifications.

this could work out cheaper than getting a company, however you might need to ensure a site precence at all times so productivity is high.

as for the plumbing, I know the price of copper is quite high but!!

regards

tony

 

[skier-hughes]

We have a similar nightmare.

Luckily I found a very competent electrician, somewhat used to working with older buildings, but not an expert, though he listens carefully to what we want, how we want it done and then adds his expertness to the equation and we come up with a solution.

We paid a set figure for fiting a competely new board and running a temporary cable through to the existing boards, 3 of them. As we work through the building we either get quaotes or pay an hourly figure for him to come out and sort us. So far we have removed one old board.

I'd be happy to do lots of the wiring myself, but time constraints and so much other work to do I'm happier to pay a reasonable fee to have it done.

 

[tony]

if you are doing up rooms one at a time, I always fit a radial circuit just for that room, rather than a ring for a collection of rooms.

it has it up and downs.

More ways are needed for circuit breakers/rcbos
but mcbs are not that expensive.I fitted rcbos into my house.


regards

tony

 

[MdB]

As an aside, have any DIYers considered taking a 'competent persons' course. As I'm contemplating a fairly big project I wonder if this would be worthwhile?

I'm currently in the process of doing a DIY rewire of my house (cue "oh my god" comments from the professionals....) and looked into getting part P competent persons qualification. I also spoke to my local building control about doing a DIY rewire (first person in Cornwall to enquire in 18 months rules have been in effect) and they were very helpful.

Getting the skills required is not too difficult (for me at least - I have an EE degree) and was mainly book work, however the big issue is testing. Once installed there are a number of important tests required to meet the regs and the test equipment required to do this is not cheap and is not justifiable for a single job - around £1000.

The way forward is to find a friendly sparky who is willing to help you out with design and fit together with joint testing at the end. I fortunately have a friend that was willing to do this for me (I'm going to do a website design for him as trade). We initially talked through my intentions which was very useful as he pointed out better / easier ways of doing stuff that I hadn't thought of. Shortly I will get him around again before I start covering up the first fix just to check for anything stupid. Finally, I'll get him in for a joint test at the end using his kit.

Building control were happy for me to sign off the design and fit stages of installation with my current qualifications but were not happy for me to do my own testing. Nominally, the same person has to design, fit and test the installation (which seems a little strange to me) but building control said that they would let this go if I found a fully accredited sparky to do the tests.

As to costs, it was suggested that getting someone in to do my house rewire (smallish 4 bed) would be £4k to £6k with mine being at the top end due to the number of sockets and the number of two way / three way lighting I wanted (lots!).

As others have said - Electrical work can be very dangerous if done incorrectly and there are lots of regs that need to be followed which are not that obvious (example 1 - size and position of putting holes through joists is carefully specified. Example 2 - bundles of cables and cables covered in insulation require the cable sizes to be increased in some instances). Do your research and if unsure - get an expert in.

Oh and if you do decide to go down the DIY route, get yourself a £50 wall chaser with vacuum attachment. Very strongly recommended. It is also worth speaking to your electricity distribution company and ask them to check their part of your wiring (should be free). If it is in as bad a state as mine then hopefully they will replace it and hopefully also supply you with an proper earth if you ask them to. This will then remove the need for you to fit your own earth rods (which appears to be a rather big pain to do properly).

 

[Penners]

Flyfisher - I suspect that Philip's post about cable colours may be at the bottom of your electrician's (I believe misguided) assertion. Apparently, you shouldn't mix the old cable colours (red and black) with the new "compliant" ones (brown and blue). You should use all one or all the other.

I hasten to add that I ain't no electrician (although I've rewired several of my past houses), and I'm relying on a very fallible memory here - I just feel that I read that cable colour thing somewhere. I didn't know about the consumer unit notice that Philip mentions, but it certainly sounds reasonable.

Have you considered asking a different electrician to discuss your needs with you? He should then be able to confirm/deny the original bloke's belief.

 

[Lime]

I have recently had an extension built with new gas piping and electric wiring.
Neither needed the rest of the house to be inspected to have this done.
The electrician tested what he was connecting to, ie mains live, neutral and earth but the other circuits were not inspected.
Similarly with the gas.
As my Corgi installer was worse than a monkey I also had British Gas inspect the work too.
They tested the whole system for leaks but did not do any further inspection.

Both electric consumer boxes now sport stickers warning of the two different cable colours.

However the systems in my house look quite good so perhaps if they looked dangerous it may have been quite different.


I know that there is a lot of controversy about Part P.
Some fitters believe that they are responsible for everything once they work on a system whereas some feel only responsible for what they do and see.

Looking at the fuseboxes of Flyfisher tells me that there is quite a lot of old wiring present in the building.

(But I've only rewired several hundred houses in my youth so what do I know.)

 

[MdB]

Flyfisher - I suspect that Philip's post about cable colours may be at the bottom of your electrician's (I believe misguided) assertion. Apparently, you shouldn't mix the old cable colours (red and black) with the new "compliant" ones (brown and blue). You should use all one or all the other.

All new work has to use the new colours (I believe) and as I've not come across anywhere still selling the old colours, it would be difficult to use the old colours anyway. (unless you reuse old wiring as has be done extensively in the past in my house....).

There is also no problem with adding additional wiring in the new colours to old wiring in the old colours. If there was then any house over two years old would need a rewire just to add a socket.

 

[NT]

Quotes Flyfisher:


> I've been told that, under the new wiring regs, if any new work is undertaken then the whole wiring to the house has to be brought into line with the new regs,

Not so. The current 16th edition wiring regs isnt new either.


> The existing wiring is certainly not up to latest regs and is frankly a bit of a mess, but it is plastic (mostly, I think!)

mostly isnt good enough in this case. 40 or 50 year old rubber is usually severely perished by now and in a precarious state.

> and does work and is just about adequte as it stands.

I thought you said some bits tripped out when it rained. If the modernish stuff on an RCD trips out, what do you think is happening with the really old wiring, which has no RCD safety protection, and other problems besides?


> But we're planning a new kitchen
> I had assumed this could be done as two completely new circuits (cooker and ring-main) without touching any of the existing wiring.

If it were me I'd not be happy connecting up to the dog's dinner in the cupboard you've got now. You could do it, but I wouldnt want to.


> I also believe it is OK to do all the wiring yourself

Yup.


> if I get someone in to certify my work, will they look only at me new wiring or will they treat the whole house as one installation and then refuse to certify it because parts of the installeion does not comply with the latest regs?

They'll inspect what you pay them to. but new wiring run off the existing cupboard probably won't meet todays specs - it might have all been upgraded along the way, but the appearance doesnt exactly say 'sorted and upto spec.' From what youve told us and shown us it seems inevitable such an inspection would fail.


> So any new work, whether notifiable or not, has no effect on the reqirements of the existing system?

It has no effect on other rings and radial feeds, but since new circuits will run from the cupboard mess, at least some of that will need to come upto spec. It might already be of course. If not, doing so you'll have to rewire at least some of the property downstream, not for legal reasons but just to get it to work. A new all RCD protected CU will be more fussy about the existing wiring downline.


> Given the mess in our current 'consumer cupboard' I'm thinking of installing a completely new consumer unit to feed the kitchen wiring and then getting in a competent person to inspect, certify and connect the new consumer unit to the meter, thereby making it completely separate from any exxisting wiring.

Its an option, plus you may need to upgrade the earthing. Really I'd put in a new CU to run the whole lot though, it needs it. If youre truly stuck moneywise, yes that'd work, but it looks like you'd be left still be running some quite dodgy wiring.


> Presumably it will become increasingly common for existing homes to have only partly-certified wiring installations as new work is carried out.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Part_P


> As an aside, have any DIYers considered taking a 'competent persons' course.

A course is a very time inefficient way to learn. News:uk.d-i-y may teach you all you need, if not then yes you'd need more input.


> I suspect the system is TT because I've not noticed any separate earthing rods etc, but I take the point about getting it properly checked out.

Is the black fusebox on the right with the green label still connected and in service? If so you've got some very old goings on there. If not, some relaxation may be in order.


> There is definitely an rcd - it occasionally trips in really heavy rain (!), but I don't think it feeds the entire installation.

Does this suggest its time to sort the CU side of things out? It doesnt sound good.


> This might help visualise the wiring challenge!
> http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/4854249

The good news is thats not hard to sort out. And not even expensive (£100s). The bad news is that at least some downline circuits probably then wont work


tony:
> It does look in poor condition, phone around some electricians and ask them to do a periodic inspection report(PIR), this will give you a better picture of the installation.

Quite - but get the PIR interpreted here or on news:uk.d-i-y, as you need to understand the implications of each item to know whats trivial and whats how serious.

A PIR should serve to give you and us a clearer idea of what issues are there, making it easier to decide what to do. I dont think theres much question though, it will fail.


> If its a tt system you need earth rods

It may be a waterpipe earth. Hope he doesnt have a shiny new plastic water supply.


> I thought about a PIR but am worried about the insurance implications.
> forced to get everything fixed.

Do you _want_ to fix it? Or do you want to live with an installation thats so shakey it trips out when it rains, and has parts of it that look over 50 years old with no such safety trip where its really needed?

Since most of the circuits have been rewired, you could replace nearly all in that cupboard with a big CU with lots of RCBOs (do _not_ go with a 1 or 2 RCD system in your case). The advantages of that are:

1 every circuit will be fed via its own rcd, which wipes out about 99% of the electrocution risk there now

2 youve got a single point on/off switch plus labelled MCB switches, so you can switch something off and know it actually is off

3 the new CU will be safe, cant see the oldest fusebox clearly but I would be wary of it without further info

4 Finally you can put an electric shower onto it if you want without being scared to use it.

The downside is from what you said I can be sure that at least some of your existing wiring will refuse to work, and just trip its RCBO, so you'll have an incomplete system while some bits get rewired.


> My latest estimate for complete re-wiring and re-plumbing is £95k.

What?? If you did it yourself it would cost a tiny fraction of that.


> I'm waiting for a breakdown,

sounds like its starting to already


> but even if the wiring is
> only 25% then I'm looking at the thick end of £25k.
> Nightmare!

once you're clearer about it all, know what to do, and how to do it for a few grand, it wont feel so bad.

Oh, some info for you about RCBOs ad other bits:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Rewiring_Tips


NT

 

[MdB]

... lots of stuff ...

Yup. Agree with all of that.