New lintel/flat roof issues

[Zebra]

Thanks zebra. I had thought about making a hole in the lath and plaster ceiling below and maybe propping the joists, but I’ve a horrible feeling I’ll find rotten ends and therefore open another can of worms. The room below contains 2 gas boilers and the compression vessel thingy. Eventually the weird 2 boiler system needs replacing, but it’s still working ok so not urgent! There’s also a big sink on a brick plinth against the house wall which would need removing to get props in. Not insurmountable. Perhaps you’re right-the lintel/former doesn't look like it’s doing much, but there are bricks resting on it, and from what feltwell said about self-corbelling maybe the worst that can happen is a few bricks fall out. But maybe a lot more! To get the new lintel into the 9 inch brick walls far enough and insert padstones or new bricks, I’d have to make some bigger holes, wait for mortar to dry etc. Making holes in the walls with nothing supporting the adjacent wall feels a bit scary I’m rambling now, sorry!

Well if you have a can of worms (rotten joists), there's no benefit in not getting it open, and if there is a further problem, better to know now before any builder can possibly, perhaps unknowingly cause more damage. So this elephant we have to eat a spoonful at a time.. first spoonful is doing something, anything, to support the brickwork as best you can, which yes, might involve holes in ceilings.... second spoonful is then giving the timber lintel a poke and a wiggle..... you might just find that oh! it's fallen out... (that's when you rush off to the builders merchants for a new lintel and shove it in quick!) but if it doesn't come out immediately you will see what is going to go with it, whether a couple of bricks are going to fall out, or whether the whole wall is now moving... the thing with this approach is that you can always abort and run away, but by proceeding carefully one step at a time, you can see what you're up against as you go along, and you're not at any time biting off more elephant than you can chew. Very chewy, elephants.

 

[Cassie]

Well if you have a can of worms (rotten joists), there's no benefit in not getting it open, and if there is a further problem, better to know now before any builder can possibly, perhaps unknowingly cause more damage. So this elephant we have to eat a spoonful at a time.. first spoonful is doing something, anything, to support the brickwork as best you can, which yes, might involve holes in ceilings.... second spoonful is then giving the timber lintel a poke and a wiggle..... you might just find that oh! it's fallen out... (that's when you rush off to the builders merchants for a new lintel and shove it in quick!) but if it doesn't come out immediately you will see what is going to go with it, whether a couple of bricks are going to fall out, or whether the whole wall is now moving... the thing with this approach is that you can always abort and run away, but by proceeding carefully one step at a time, you can see what you're up against as you go along, and you're not at any time biting off more elephant than you can chew. Very chewy, elephants.

Thanks zebra- this elephant eating is giving me a headache! After I responded to cubist earlier, I’ve realised I’m not giving myself all the information possibly available. I think my next move is to remove the plaster on the hall side up to the cornice and see what condition the wall is in, whether any obvious signs of movement and whether there indeed is evidence of a relief arch. As for the timber lintel, I think if I breathed on it too hard it would fall out/crumble to dust!

 

[stuart45]

In the last photo Cassie, where is the arch roughly. Does it come just under the ceiling joists? If some of the plaster was off, you could see how it was done a bit better.

 

[Zebra]

Very good plan. Some exploratory plaster removal sounds like a good idea. And if the lintel is basically dust, then removing it won't make anything fall down.

 

[Cubist]

My thinking is that there is precious chance of manoeuvring a lintel into place from the porch side because of the various obstructions. I cannot see a way to get it past the good joist without dismantling part of the porch roof. I see that you've stripped off much of the plaster in the hall. Is there any evidence of the brick arch you were told is above the rotten timber?

If not, I think your best avenue for investigation would be to remove the fascia as I suggested before as this may help to throw some more light on the nature of the challenge.

 

[Cubist]

BTW - just how many pachyderms are you hosting and how big is the barbie?

 

[Cassie]

Ha ha Cubist, it seems to be turning into a herd!
The plaster in the hall is so far only off a little bit at the left hand side-our lime plaster is red made presumably with local red sand/mud. The fields are red when ploughed!
I haven't seen any sight of the purported arch yet-I’ll whip off the remaining plaster over the weekend and see what’s there- hopefully nice solid brick all well mortared in and not moving!
Zebra-you make a good point- I can’t see that the timber can possibly be doing much and a wiggle would be unlikely to do any harm Good job I’m hungry

 

[stuart45]

Red soil, you must live around Torquay.

 

[Cassie]

Red soil, you must live around Torquay.

Dawlish!

 

[Cubist]

Now I understand - its the cream buns attracting the elephants.

Sorry, its early, need more

 

[Cassie]

Now I understand - its the cream buns attracting the elephants.

Sorry, its early, need more

 

[Cassie]

Plaster off on the hall side, it’s good news Relief arch looking good, a small bit of infill brick on top of the former. Slightly complicating is I now think it may be a cavity wall. But I think there’s something between the formers on the front and the back. Found wires that were going in a different direction than I though for the porch light-better to know that than not! Next job, now I know it’s held up mostly is to remove the fascia with the light fitting in the porch to fathom the ? Cavity wall situation. I’m feeling a lot more confident about this now. Might just be able to save myself 2.9k +vat

 

[stuart45]

Looks a lot simpler now Cassie. Looks like it's a solid 9 inch wall. If you need to replace the timbers whip out the brick infill, replace them and then put the brickwork back. No need to lose 3.5k.

 

[Cassie]

Thanks stuart! That’s what I’m thinking. But before I do anything else though, as per Cubist’s advice, I’ll take the fascia on the porch side down (having disconnected the currently live light fitting!) and just check what’s in the middle. I have a bit of a tendency to overthink things, and I probably could have just done a bugger it and pulled out the timber safely anyway, but I now know a lot more about the structure of that bit of my house which can’t be a bad thing

 

[Cubist]

Great news Cassie, I think you'll find that the studs you can see the ends of in the hall and in the porch are carrying the rotted transverse joist/lintel and that in turn was/is carrying the the deck of the leaking roof above. Look out for any indications of old lead-work drains. Good hunting.

BTW My fathers advice - Ignorance is never blissful, merely the calm before the storm.

 

[Cassie]

I’m still fairly ignorant, a bit more blissful, but definitely expecting further storms. Might be able to afford a brolly though if I can get this choice cut of pachyderm down me! (Sorry, long day )

 

[Cassie]

So, I decided today was the day to get the fascia off and see what’s going on with the timber above. Unfortunately, it hasn’t worked out quite as expected (does anything?! ) The fascia is nailed into noggins with giant iron nails, and the noggins into the thing above with the same giant nails. Despite the apparent fragility of the wood I can’t move it without brute force, which I’m worried will disrupt the ropey brickwork. So I thought I’d use a multi tool to cut through the nails. Does this sound like a terrible idea? Will the vibrations cause a problem with the brick?? Sorry if this sounds a bit stupid, I am as always grateful for your thoughts

 

[Cubist]

Hi Cassie,

A multi-tool will cut iron nails but may struggle if they are quite heavy ones. You also need to be mindful of the heat produced when cutting steel/iron there is a fire risk. The biggest issue though is the 'reach' of the cutting edge; it may not be able to reach any nails that are set well back from the leading edge of the fascia. A better idea, and one I have used in the past, is to use a hole saw to cut a plug around the nail head to free the board. You can pick up hole saw sets at Toolstation and the like for about a tenner.

Method is to locate the nail heads and expose them, use the hole saw pilot drill placed next to the nail head with a hole cutter fitted that is large enough to cut around the nail head. Make sure you mark the depth of the fascia board on the side of the hole saw so you don't take too much material. When you've removed the fascia the remaining wooden slug will be easy to remove from the nail head and this may give you enough room and leverage to pull the nails or cut them off with a multi-tool.

The holes in the fascia are also quite easy to repair with wooden plugs.

Also, if you haven't got one, buy yourself a good strong magnet to help find the nail heads.

Good luck.

 

[stuart45]

That sounds like a good plan Cubist. I suppose method 3 of a gorilla bar, putlog on the end and a 14lb sledge hammer is not recommended.

 

[Cubist]

That sounds like a good plan Cubist. I suppose method 3 of a gorilla bar, putlog on the end and a 14lb sledge hammer is not recommended.

that would definitely work Stuart....... but, Cassie may not be best pleased when the porch comes down around her ears.