New Grump of the Day

[paulc]

Lifted a couple of floorboards in the hallway to facilitate some wiring. There is a hap of about 3" between a dwarf wall supporting the joists and the external wall. Just removed a bucket full of slightly damp rubble, mortar snots, and sand that was breaching the DPC and in contact with the sill plate. Suspect the pile of crap has been there since 1928/9 when the house was built. Fortunately, there doesn't appear to be any rot in the timbers.
If indeed, the debris does date from 1928, sloppy work by the builders involved.

 

[noj]

If it had been there since 1928 then arguably you've just changed an environment that had prevented rot for nearly a century

 

[paulc]

Possibly damp because I've been doing some plumbing in that corner. There had been some escape of water from one of the pipes that I thought had been caught in a tray.

 

[Toby Newell]

I’ve had similar incidents to this and along with other challenges everything is pushing me to add dust extraction to everything I own - was working outside today so didn’t bother, halfway through ripping down an oak worktop really wished I had as I was covered!

Machine sanding without dust extraction is ridiculous, I actually dislike hand sanding now because it releases ao much more dust.

 

[wobs]

I’ve had similar incidents to this and along with other challenges everything is pushing me to add dust extraction to everything I own - was working outside today so didn’t bother, halfway through ripping down an oak worktop really wished I had as I was covered!

Just to add some numbers/detail to this:
Hardwood dust is a carcinogenic, and the limit on exposure is only slightly higher than MDF.
Both soft wood and hard wood are respiratory sensitisers.

8hr exposure limits for them are:
Softwood - 5mg/m3 8hr TWA
Hardwood - 3mg/m3 8hr TWA
MDF (listed as formaldehyde) - 2.5mg/m3 8hr TWA

Side note:
Slightly surprised that silicon is as high as 10 for inhalable and 4 for respirable over 8hrs TWA. Thought it would be lower.

See EH40 for further details.

 

[Toby Newell]

Just to add some numbers/detail to this:
Hardwood dust is a carcinogenic, and the limit on exposure is only slightly higher than MDF.
Both soft wood and hard wood are respiratory sensitisers.

8hr exposure limits for them are:
Softwood - 5mg/m3 8hr TWA
Hardwood - 3mg/m3 8hr TWA
MDF (listed as formaldehyde) - 2.5mg/m3 8hr TWA

Side note:
Slightly surprised that silicon is as high as 10 for inhalable and 4 for respirable over 8hrs TWA. Thought it would be lower.

See EH40 for further details.

Meh and lol.

All studies are 'associated' risk, correlation does not equal causation, to date no causal link or biochemical mechanism has been proposed. Just a bunch of statistics for people who worked in wood dusty environments, probably where they also inhaled a lot of aromatic hydrocarbon solvents, including formaldehyde type substances.

Mind you, common and ubiquitous aroma and cleaning chemicals like limonene used in air fresheners, deodourants and cosmetics form formaldehyde as does burning wood, so make sure to wear an organic fume respirator.

Oh and don't fly, in an airliner. Or do shift work. Both Class 1 carcinogens. And definately don't eat a sausage or have a bacon sandwhich, also Class 1 carcinogens.

Actually, if you do the research, you will find apart from walking outside (UV light, cosmic rays, ozone) the main carcinogens in life are 1. breathing oxygen and 2. metabolising food.

But yes, if I ever remove the tin hat and venture out from behind the sofa I am currently rarely far from my 4 dust extractors and £2,000 worth of hoses, so cannot agree more on using dust extraction.

As an aside I would class the detritus from old carpets as orders of magnitude worse than any wood dust, 100% wear a respirator and vacuum all walls and surfaces if you move any.

 

[Toby Newell]

Did anyone mention couriers?

Evri just update their tracking from no information to 'your package is arriving in 23 minutes'. Awesome.

 

[Toby Newell]

Just to add some numbers/detail to this:
Hardwood dust is a carcinogenic, and the limit on exposure is only slightly higher than MDF.
Both soft wood and hard wood are respiratory sensitisers.

8hr exposure limits for them are:
Softwood - 5mg/m3 8hr TWA
Hardwood - 3mg/m3 8hr TWA
MDF (listed as formaldehyde) - 2.5mg/m3 8hr TWA

Side note:
Slightly surprised that silicon is as high as 10 for inhalable and 4 for respirable over 8hrs TWA. Thought it would be lower.

See EH40 for further details.

This sounds peverse seeing as I have probably more dust extraction equipment per capita than anyone in the country... but a lot of these statistics are outdated and based on spurious research, just saying.

I am betting pretty highly the correlation will be found to be due to associated solvents and adhesives rather than cellulose or lignin. Despite formaldehyde levels being 10 - 20x lower than when the first research was done I would still prefer my furniture and woodwork to be made from wood rather than mdf. I can proudly say I never used or knowingly agreed to work on a floor that uses mdf or osb!

 

[paulc]

Did anyone mention couriers?

Evri just update their tracking from no information to 'your package is arriving in 23 minutes'. Awesome.

Evri (previously known as Herpes Hermes) is not a courier company. They are a next day (if you are lucky) parcel company.

 

[LadyArowana]

Did anyone mention couriers?

Evri just update their tracking from no information to 'your package is arriving in 23 minutes'. Awesome.

Yes but “where” is it arriving in 23minutes!

 

[Toby Newell]

Yes but “where” is it arriving in 23minutes!

The plant pot in the hallway downstairs.

 

[LadyArowana]

The plant pot in the hallway downstairs.

Well that's not so bad. But I promise if it had come to me I would have made Evri effort ( see what I did there ) to get it to you. Our place is a mystical portal which receives many random misdeliveries from all companies. I have never failed to get them to the rightful owner, I begin to think they get dumped on purpose

 

[Feltwell]

Did anyone mention couriers?

Evri just update their tracking from no information to 'your package is arriving in 23 minutes'. Awesome.

Evri - grrrr!!! Just had a very unhappy customer who has finally got their parcel after 2 weeks and much chasing.

Mind you, Royal Mail are rubbish at the moment, regularly taking up to 10 days to deliver 2nd class post. Even "Parcel48" is often taking 4-5 days.

 

[paulc]

Evri - grrrr!!! Just had a very unhappy customer who has finally got their parcel after 2 weeks and much chasing.

Mind you, Royal Mail are rubbish at the moment, regularly taking up to 10 days to deliver 2nd class post. Even "Parcel48" is often taking 4-5 days.

On the flip side, ordered some "stuff" which was posted 2nd class with Royal Mail. It came through the letterbox the following day.

 

[wobs]

This sounds peverse seeing as I have probably more dust extraction equipment per capita than anyone in the country... but a lot of these statistics are outdated and based on spurious research, just saying.

I am betting pretty highly the correlation will be found to be due to associated solvents and adhesives rather than cellulose or lignin. Despite formaldehyde levels being 10 - 20x lower than when the first research was done I would still prefer my furniture and woodwork to be made from wood rather than mdf. I can proudly say I never used or knowingly agreed to work on a floor that uses mdf or osb!

"Carcinogenicity
Wood dust is known to be a human carcinogen based on sufficient evidence of carcinogenicity from studies in humans.

Cancer Studies in Humans
Many case reports and epidemiological studies (including cohort studies and case-control studies that specifically addressed nasal cancer) have found a strong association between exposure to wood dust and cancer of the nasal cavity. Strong and consistent associations with cancer of the nasal cavity and paranasal sinuses were observed both in studies of people whose occupations were associated with wood-dust exposure and in studies that directly estimated wood dust exposure."

https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/sites/default/files/ntp/roc/content/profiles/wooddust.pdf

"Carcinogenic
Hard wood dust has long been recognised to have carcinogenic properties. However, research has shown that the cancer-causing risk of exposure is greater than previously realised. In particular, the research has shown that long-term exposure to relatively small amounts of wood dust correlates with a much higher risk of cancer in later life. As a result, the UK government’s Health and Safety Executive (HSE) is implementing new exposure limits. It is therefore essential for businesses to implement effective control measures in advance of January 2020."

Changes to Wood Dust Exposure Limits - Workplace Exposure Ltd

Changes to Wood Dust Exposure Limits - Workplace Exposure Ltd -

workplaceexposure.co.uk

I'm sure more work could be done to study this, but "spurious" is not a word I would use.

 

[Toby Newell]

I concede my language was rather loose, I should of said possibly spurious rather than spurious, because it is perfectly reasonable the association belies a mechanism that is not yet understood.

2. (of a line of reasoning) apparently but not actually valid.

epidemiological and associative does not equal causation.

good example, red meat is good for you and is positively associated with better health outcomes.

You may have heard red meat is bad for you, that was wrong, as it was mostly based on epidemiological studies on North American cohorts who predominantly ate cereal fed, intensively reared, hormone and antibiotic filled low quality red meat.

This meat contains high levels of omega 6 EFA's which are pro inflammatory, whereas free range, grass fed meat contains high levels of anti inflammatory omega 3 EFA's.

Same thing with cholestorol in butter which is an essential nutrient lining every cell, and used to make vitamin D the most important pro hormone. Rather it is glycation of apo-b protein receptor sites in LDL miscelles due to excess glucose that stop LDL from being recycled in the liver.

I grew up on pro inflammotory omega 6 filled sunflower margarine because my dear Mum wanted to reduce our cholestorol levels.

Just two massive errors caused by assosiative studies without understanding mechanisms.

We know processed meat is a class 1 carcinogen because we understand the reaction of high protein levels with nitrate and nitrites form nitrosamines that are mutagenic.

We know of no such mechanism with wood dust, hence the association is (possibly!) spurious.

Facts are important, and this is coming from possibly the most dust conscious wood worker you could wish to meet.

In general I think inhaling particles of any matter are in general not a great idea. One could imagine trillions of particles of a particular size range could get lodged in membranes and thus cause inflammation.

I hate working with other trades, especially decorators, because they create large amounts of dust.

 

[Toby Newell]

FYI it is highly likely covid started in a lab.

Wearing masks had no appreciable clinical protective benefit.

Once omicron was prevalent the risks associated with taking vaccines was far greater than the risk from covid itself.

All scientific facts, you may have heard otherwise, information was twisted and repressed.

You may have heard people talking about Ivermectin as 'horse dewormer'. Less coverage about the fact is is a human rated medicine with several billion doses given so important it is on the WHO and UN essential medecine list and the people who discovered it received the Nobel prize.

Same with statins, there is no statistical evidence they work.

It's sad, but up to 50% of published papers are indeed spurious either accidentally or on purpose, much like the demonification of fats promoted by sugar manufacturers.

An open mind is a healthy mind imho.

 

[Lacan07]

FYI it is highly likely covid started in a lab.

Wearing masks had no appreciable clinical protective benefit.

Once omicron was prevalent the risks associated with taking vaccines was far greater than the risk from covid itself.

All scientific facts, you may have heard otherwise, information was twisted and repressed.

You may have heard people talking about Ivermectin as 'horse dewormer'. Less coverage about the fact is is a human rated medicine with several billion doses given so important it is on the WHO and UN essential medecine list and the people who discovered it received the Nobel prize.

Same with statins, there is no statistical evidence they work.

It's sad, but up to 50% of published papers are indeed spurious either accidentally or on purpose, much like the demonification of fats promoted by sugar manufacturers.

An open mind is a healthy mind imho.

If you want to understand the context or framework around which science is produced these days you're best off looking at who's funding it.

The Ivermectin saga was hilarious, it's an award winning drug that's been administered to millions of people over the years for various aliments. But unfortunately for big Pharma the patent was due to run out just before COVID so they deliberately rubbished its effectiveness via the MSM. I doubt very much the vaccines were necessary but we couldn't have a magic bullet that costs tuppence to produce, is well tested, and could be marketed by anyone with a license could we.

 

[Toby Newell]

If you want to understand the context or framework around which science is produced these days you're best off looking at who's funding it.

The Ivermectin saga was hilarious, it's an award winning drug that's been administered to millions of people over the years for various aliments. But unfortunately for big Pharma the patent was due to run out just before COVID so they deliberately rubbished its effectiveness via the MSM. I doubt very much the vaccines were necessary but we couldn't have a magic bullet that costs tuppence to produce, is well tested, and could be marketed by anyone with a license could we.

The gentleman who suggested it's use as possibly being helpful was the same highly respected guy who also suggested that steroids may be helpful, indeed they were and saved thousands of lives.

Is actually quite perverse the manipulation of data to support big business interests and even more perplexing that ignorant, negligent and lazy journalists got caught up in the mass propaganda hysteria, quite interesting view of human psychology!

Vitamin D, (actually a pro hormone) and possibly the most healthy substance humans can ingest was overlooked largely because it was out of patent and thus not monetisable, I am sure thousands of extras lives could of been saved.

My favourite is still statins though, the Cambridge professor who created it also did the trials and helpfully excluded participants who had adverse reactions at the start of the trial, from the trial, which was to investigate adverse reactions... excellent!

If you have a think about it my point is also a little counter intuitive or perverse, ie I do not think wood dust is necessarily significantly more carcinogenic than any other low mass particulate. I think it is easier to 'find' an associative cause, put restrictions on wood dust and tell everyone to carry on consuming. I am reasonably sure that in the future we will find that we need to restrict all dusts of a similar size, I think this is a fudge and my argument is for more dust management not less! I am pretty sure whether it's coal dust, plaster dust, wood dust or fairy dust, if you inhale dust of a particular size it gets imbedded in organic membranes and thus causes inflammation. I am quite careful with dust of all types, general detritus from carpets is far worse. Shortly I will have to pay to use my 21 year old van anything other than outside my doorstep while millions of middle class and rich types happily continue to burn open fires at no cost causing more pollution than all the vans in the country. Doesn't make restricting old van use wrong, it's just very selective use of data. As a asthma sufferer I can say walking around normally I never get issues around busy roads or indeed the back of my own running vehicle but on foggy winter days get affected immediately when a house a hundred feet away burns wood.

I am also pretty sure if there was anything specifically extra harmful about wood dust the association would be far stronger. I mean, I hope all the authors of the many studies on which the meta studies were taken from adjusted for confounding factors such as the 'working with wood' cohort being almost exclusively working class / lower income (suffer more cancers, worse health outcomes / more stress / poorer diet / more likely to smoke) and male (same)

It's a bit like your yoghurt pots that are burnt, buried or shipped overseas to be burnt or buried, it would be better to consume less rather than to lie that plastic is being widely recycled.

 

[wobs]

I concede my language was rather loose, I should of said possibly spurious rather than spurious, because it is perfectly reasonable the association belies a mechanism that is not yet understood.

2. (of a line of reasoning) apparently but not actually valid.

epidemiological and associative does not equal causation.

good example, red meat is good for you and is positively associated with better health outcomes.

You may have heard red meat is bad for you, that was wrong, as it was mostly based on epidemiological studies on North American cohorts who predominantly ate cereal fed, intensively reared, hormone and antibiotic filled low quality red meat.

This meat contains high levels of omega 6 EFA's which are pro inflammatory, whereas free range, grass fed meat contains high levels of anti inflammatory omega 3 EFA's.

Same thing with cholestorol in butter which is an essential nutrient lining every cell, and used to make vitamin D the most important pro hormone. Rather it is glycation of apo-b protein receptor sites in LDL miscelles due to excess glucose that stop LDL from being recycled in the liver.

I grew up on pro inflammotory omega 6 filled sunflower margarine because my dear Mum wanted to reduce our cholestorol levels.

Just two massive errors caused by assosiative studies without understanding mechanisms.

We know processed meat is a class 1 carcinogen because we understand the reaction of high protein levels with nitrate and nitrites form nitrosamines that are mutagenic.

We know of no such mechanism with wood dust, hence the association is (possibly!) spurious.

Facts are important, and this is coming from possibly the most dust conscious wood worker you could wish to meet.

In general I think inhaling particles of any matter are in general not a great idea. One could imagine trillions of particles of a particular size range could get lodged in membranes and thus cause inflammation.

I hate working with other trades, especially decorators, because they create large amounts of dust.

And yet there have been many studies:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/644031/print-ready-nasal-carcinoma-and-occupational-exposure-to-wood-dust-iiac-report.pdf

...That have found a link with hardwood, but not softwood.

Sure, there may be a study in the future that finds its something else, but we should use the evidence we have until better comes along.

As for trades... I too have found a lack of care for dust exposure generally, and noise issues as well.