MDF doors warping.

[Flyfisher]

In the supermarkets I look at food miles when making choices. I rarely buy fresh food from outside Europe.

But food miles applies to all food types whether fresh, frozen, dried, canned, etc.

However, like so many green issues, 'food miles' is only the tip of a complex iceberg. I recently read an article about tomato production that concluded that UK-grown tomatoes required more energy input than spanish-grown ones, including transport because of the energy requirements to run the UK greenhouses. So it's, apparently, 'greener' to buy spanish tomatos despite the higher food miles :?

Then there are the apparent conflicts between fairtrade and food miles concepts. Should we be shipping (say) coffee beans around the world at all? - it's hardly a staple foodstuff is it?

Limiting ourselves to a genuinely local diet, without recourse to vast energy-consuming greenhouses, would significantly reduce the variety of the UK diet (forget most citrus fruits for a start). I doubt this would be acceptable to most people.

 

[Juju]

The point is most people can make choices. Nobody's perfect and there's always someone trying to tell you your choices are 'wrong'. As a vegetarian, I never preach - my partner and stepchildren eat meat - but people are always preaching at me about my choices! My choices in life are not to eat animals, to walk or use public transport where possible, to buy food where possible that hasn't been shipped half way round the world, and when I fancy tea or chocolate or whatever, I try to buy it Fairtrade. It doesn't balance out the food miles but it means that someone hopefully is benefitting from my purchase. There's also Fairtrade clothes, gifts, etc or secondhand goods (I always look on ebay or Freecycle first).

By the way, as someone who has studied nutrition, I can tell you that it is possible to be perfectly healthy on food grown in the UK - whether bought in shops or markets or grown in your own garden.

 

[Nemesis]

Which is about what we try to do, although as we don't live very near enough to a town to walk to shop the loss of the sole shop for several miles (which we use to buy the newspaper and various other items) will come as a blow to many. In fact the other half has to travel to the local town a couple of times a week anyhow so mostly fits in a bit of shopping at various venues with that. He actually quite enjoys it. We grow some of our own, and bulk buy certain items such as flour (from the mill). Cheese comes mainly from a local producer. We also try to fit in visits out with a bit of food buying - lovely wholefood shop in Alston for example.

There used to be a travelling shop too, but that has gone in recent times. The PO closures isn't about profits in each individual shop, it's about losses overall and 'rationalisation'. This means that the loss of the PO element from village shops will also mean the loss of the shop. Post foot and mouth the government promised so much to help keep rural areas alive but a great deal of that seems to have been forgotten now.

The sad thing is about the closure of shops in our local town is that it's not a wealthy area, and for many the transport issues to reach other places to buy things means more expense. The buses aren't frequent - and don't exist in the evenings.

I totally agree that there are choices - it's the fact so many don't even understand (or care about) the issues, let alone try to make a few ethical choices which, if added together, could make a difference.

I agree about kale - easy to grow too, delicious stuff, (try Cavalero Nero) and I agree about being preached at as a vegetarian - it seems to offend some people mightily when you say you don't eat meat. They take it personally for some reason.

No easy answers.

 

[biffvernon]

UK-grown tomatoes required more energy input than spanish-grown ones, including transport because of the energy requirements to run the UK greenhouses.

Indeed, for the case of heated greenhouse production of out of season tomatos. But a tomato grown in one's own unheated greenhouse, available from July through November, has a certain je ne sais quoi that the Spannish stuff in Februrary cannot compete with.

 

[Nemesis]

Flavour for example?

We still have the last handful of our home grown - grown outdoors.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm sorry if my post seemed like preaching, that was certainly not the intention - hence the ??s. My point was about the real complexity of the issues involved compared with the general superficiality of the way things are considered and reported. Thus, reduce food miles. Don't drive, use a bike or public transport. Don't use standby, switch the TV off. Put a wind turbine on your roof.

Perhaps these 'headline' behaviours help to reduce our personal impact on the planet but I'm more interested in understanding whether they are enough to prevent us marching towards our collective doom, or whether they are just a way of assuaging our various levels of personal guilt.

I see it as a bit like living beyond our means. If my lifestyle meant I was £1000 overdrawn each month then pretty soon I'd be in serious financial trouble. The only real solution is to either cut my expenditure by £1000 per month or increase my income by £1000 (or a combination of both). But what's the point in reducing my expenditure by £500 and then sitting back feeling that at least I've done something to help, even though it won't ultimately save me from bankruptcy? It's merely delaying the inevitable consequence of an unsustainable lifestyle. Would I be more virtuous than my neighbours by going bankrupt a little later than them?

I have no doubt that it's possible to have a perfectly healthy diet consisting only of locally-grown food; my point was that I doubt it's acceptable to most people. It's that sort of acceptability issue that really needs to be resolved if 6 billion people (9bn by 2050) are going to be able to live within the planet's dwindling resources.

Our lifestyle is currently overdrawn big-time and cycling to the shops to buy fairtrade bananas is not going to prevent our pending bankruptcy. Actually, it's more dangerous than that and can be counter-productive by lulling us into a false sense of security that we're doing something that will actually solve the problem, when it won't.

No easy answers.

Absolutely.

 

[bower1]

I agree about being preached at as a vegetarian - it seems to offend some people mightily when you say you don't eat meat

I know a number of vegetarians who do make comments which can be taken as offensive, I've met several who will make comments during a meal that meat is "disgusting" or the like. They may be right, but its still offensive. I also find that typically those same people will assume that you eat meat because you've never thought about being a vegetarian.

I also know many vegetarians who do not preach. As with everything, its the loud ones who get noticed.

 

[Nemesis]

Put a wind turbine on your roof.

No that's not one of the solutions.
Nor is ignoring the isssues as it won't make a difference, of course.

They may be right, but its still offensive.

Oooh the complexities of that one!

 

[Juju]

And I find it offensive when every single meat-eater I know (including my partner) will say to me on a regular basis 'Oh I know you're vegetarian but this bit of beef is lovely' and then go into great detail about its taste, texture, etc. Now, I have been known to go into raptures over a butternut squash risotto but I don't think that's quite so offensive to a meat eater! Still you never know I suppose.

And those of you who think it's not worth doing anything to help the environment, no matter how small, well, I despair.. It's funny how as a school kid in the 1970s when I first heard about greenhouse gases and climate change, I got really upset and was the first person amongst my friends and family to start recycling, etc. Oh well, according to some people on this site, I guess I only do it because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with actually caring about the environment and communities in other parts of the world. Right, I'm off to eat an organic British cheese sandwich.

 

[Nemesis]

'Oh I know you're vegetarian but this bit of beef is lovely'

and

'Oh, you don't know what you're missing'


Yes I do, I do!


I also appreciate that being a lacto vegetarian still means cruelty and calf deaths but I don't like meat!

 

[MdB]

And those of you who think it's not worth doing anything to help the environment, no matter how small, well, I despair.. ... Oh well, according to some people on this site, I guess I only do it because it makes me feel good and has nothing to do with actually caring about the environment and communities in other parts of the world..

I think you may have missunderstood some people here. The vast majority (if not all) do believe in helping the environment. What we differ is in what is the best thing to do.

I for one, state that putting a wind turbine on the roof is very likely to be bad for the environment (though I think large scale wind turbines are good). I also think that buying tomatoes from Spain is better than buying tomatoes from the UK (though home grown are better still). I also believe that in very general terms, buying cheap stuff is better for the environment than buying expensive stuff due to the money == energy equation. To really be good to the environment, I believe people should stop earning money and hence stop spending money with a corresponding drop in living standards.

I am also happy to believe that many people think some or all of the above is complete rubbish. That may or may not be true but this does not detract from our common belief that action is required to help the environment.

 

[bower1]

I also think the general concern is that because people feel they've done "something" to help the environment, they don't think any more about it, or worse, do more harmful things with their good feeling.

That is not the same as saying that its not worth doing anything, or that you shouldn't feel better about it!

 

[Flyfisher]

I also think the general concern is that because people feel they've done "something" to help the environment, they don't think any more about it, or worse, do more harmful things with their good feeling.

Precisely.

To really be good to the environment, I believe people should stop earning money and hence stop spending money with a corresponding drop in living standards.

I agree entirely. The reality, however, is that very few people seem to be prepared to really lower their standard of living. Indeed, the entire 'western' economic model, to which, we're told, the entire '3rd world' aspires, is predicated on continuous expansion.

Perhaps not so much a case of 'no easy answers' as 'no acceptable answers'.

 

[CHRIS]

I was guttted when they shut the Tesco cafe in the local store - the bacon sarnies were great - especially the white bread! nearly as good as the Ikea cafe! gotta love these meat balls and pasta

Funny how the people who moaned about Tescos moaned even more when the cafe went, it was front page on the local paper one week followed the next week by the story of the removal of the bench outside the same Tescos front door due to hoodies on skateboards doing rail slides or what ever they do now (we even have the best skatepark in the UK http://www.oneminetpark.co.uk/gallery_complete.html)- and I am blaming them for the £250 I spent yesterday getting the water out of my fuel system and filter due to dodgy diesel (Tescos not the hoodies).

Tescos wont deliver to us as it involves a bit of reversing - useless!! and the main reason for not shopping in Tesco - its near the estate and full of Vicky Pollards in flamable trousers dragging 5 dustbin lids around effing and blinding - so now if we are all honest thats the main reason we hate it!!!!!!!

 

[Nemesis]

do more harmful things with their good feeling.

Bit puzzled by that one.

(I don't shop at Tesco cos I think it sucks really. for a number of reasons.)

 

[MdB]

do more harmful things with their good feeling.

Bit puzzled by that one.

E.g. "I will put a micro wind turbine on my house as its a green thing to do and makes me feel good." except it isn't green and not good for the environment.

E.g. "I will only buy UK tomatoes rather than Spanish tomatoes as it reduces food miles and makes me feel good." except that overall Spanish tomatoes takes less energy in their production.

 

[Nemesis]

Or eat fewer tomatoes?

In the Defra report, there is a neat case study of tomatoes. The energy audit for Spanish or English tomatoes can be very different. Surprisingly, perhaps, the English may actually be worst for the environment, if reared under energy-wasteful heated glass rather than in the open air. Undoubtedly correct, but I am watching the Spanish drought and the crazy draining of underground aquifers, let alone river rerouting, being done in the name of lowering the costs of intensive rearing in Murcia. Frankly, even if the Spanish toms are open-air (many are under hideous plastic), the hidden indignity of the casual labour, let alone the profligate agrichemical use, as the Guardian's Felicity Lawrence showed in her book Not on the Label, makes me want to cut out tomatoes altogether.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1541268,00.html

Consumers demand more choice all year around, so to what extent are they to blame for global sourcing and technologically enhanced growing seasons? Consumers expect produce lines to be available outside the traditional British growing season. Strawberries are a prime example of increasing consumer demands. Over the 12-week Christmas period in 2006 (12 w/e 31 December 2006) 20% of GB households bought strawberries. As we become accustomed to the availability of these products throughout the year consumer demand for these products outside their traditional domestic growing season facilitates the supply.

The concept of food miles may have limitations but media attention around British produce is likely to increase as we have seen with issues such as fair trade and responsible packaging. The topic of food miles and British produce is set to become another key factor in retailer identity and differentiation.

Tasteless strawberries in winter - why?


http://www.talkingretail.com/opinions/5938/ANALYSIS-British-produce.ehtml

 

[bower1]

Or eat fewer tomatoes in winter?

I've had too many this year already. All home grown though. That does rather bring up a benefit of importing food though. It evens out one country having a bad summer if others don't. Does anyone know if how much this years crops were affected in the end? There was talk of a UK shortage of fruit and veg. We only really managed to grow tomatos!

 

[bower1]

from: http://www.talkingretail.com/opinions/5938/ANALYSIS-British-produce.ehtml

Similarly, British ales and ciders provide positive stories.

I always think so.

 

[Nemesis]

Bought some of this in Carlisle at the weekend:

http://www.cockrobin.org/

and very good it is too, even though certain of the apples and pears have been 'shipped'.

Bizarre - a continental market with a bit of local produce thrown in!

I didn't notice the continental produce selling terribly well I have to say - piles of bread etc in the open air left at the end of the day.