Maintaining Sash Windows

[Nemesis]

That's about what I had thought - and they don't last!

Bloody 'ell though...

It's about time for our winter draughtproofing...

I tend to prefer Nouvelle, as it's recycled. And in the spring - recyclable.

 

[plumbers mate]

I used one of those work it out for yourself pages on the Web and it was going to cost about 10grand - Ventrolla will be £5,600 plus the bathroom window - as the others average £450 each, I'm expecting a total of around £6000

Mind you, when I bought the house 25 years ago I paid - yep! £6000

Have a good weekend , see yous all on monday.

 

[Rhian]

Reading this has got me all worried! We have Ventrolla coming in next month to do the windows but i didn't realise that the pvc bit of it was going to be out in the open - I thought it was in the covered up bit between the window and the frame. I hate the idea of having any pvc in my windows (and wasn't so keen on them using woodfiller etc either) but agreed to it as noone else would even turn up to quote (including quite a few people recommended on here!)

Is the PVC really obvious? Does anyone know a good alternative in London that will actually show up so I have an alternative to letting ventrolla loose on the windows?
thanks!

 

[plumbers mate]

I believe the plastic bit is the beading so that you can take it off to open the sash out to get to the outside for maintenance - nailed-on wood smashes.

 

[Rhian]

I think that's it too - it would look dreadful if that is pvc and the rest of the window is wood - you couldn't even paint it properly....... oh dear I think i'm going to have to have a serious rethink about this but I don't have time to do it myself and noone else even bothers to turn up and quote for the job!

 

[Nemesis]

If it's only the parting bead - you could poss 'blu-tak' a thin painted wood sliver over it for when the window is closed. Or indeed paint it? Or stick some lining paper on it and paint that?

I'm sure that there must be some means of disguise.


I assume that it also holds the draughtproof brush.

 

[thiambal]

http://www.ventrolla.co.uk/sashwindowrenovation/sashwindowsealingsystem

As you can see from this the parting bead is....

Extruded in specially formulated unplasticised resistant grade uPVC giving excellent resistance to weathering.
Supplied in a number of colours to match existing finishes with an added option to create special colours on request.

Actually this design looks a little better than some other version I have seen used which looks more like this.....

http://www.mightonproducts.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=6

and the ventrolla stuff appears to be detachable which should aid painting. I suppose the question are-

How long will it last?
Will it discolour and degrade?
How easy is it to replace, will you be able to source it in 20 years time? Do they have to alter the size of the original parting bead grove to get it in - in which case it could be hard to replace later if wood had to be used again?

Do you really need draft exclusion on the parting bead - we have not done the parting bead (but have done the staff beads and meeting rails and the windows seem fine.

I would stress that my criticisms of Ventrolla have only been based on my impressions of one rep from the company and the very positive (and cheaper) experience we had with a local carpenter. Not on any work we have actually had done by them.

 

[Rhian]

Thanks for your replies.
thiambal - don't suppose your local carpenter would come as far as SE5 would they?? We haven't been able to find anyone local and Ventrolla were the only ones who turned up!
I still can't work out if the pvc bit will be visible on the window..... and i don't like the idea of doing something i can't take back and also having to have it all redone in 20 years time when the pvc has rotted! i might have to take our chances tho seeing as we've already paid the deposit!

 

[Juju]

I used the Sash Window Workshop as I didn't like Ventrolla's upvc beading - especially as two of my windows are painted blue. A white upvc strip would have looked awful!

On another note, I'm hoping to buy a lovely 17th century house but it has upvc secondary glazing on the timber casement windows. I guess secondary glazing doesn't exist in timber?

 

[thiambal]

Rhian

I feel a but guilty in a way, it is horrible when you have something booked and arranged and then someone says....ah but.... So only take this for what it is worth and it is only my opinion.

If I understand Ventrolla's diagram and explanation correctly the whole parting bead is made of UPVC and just like any other parting bead you will always be able to see 1/2 of it inside and out.

The reason they use UPVC is that the old parting bead size is too narrow to rout out to add a draft proof strip. Newer wood windows have a slightly wider bead to accomodate this.

As long at they do not alter the size of the parting bead groove on your frame, and they do screw the u-shaped section into the groove you should be able to take it out at a later date and replace it against with wood bead. (I would however be interested to know how the screw it in, all my windows have a 2mm wide gap at the bottom of the groove where the two sides of the box come together - assuming it must be a small screw and I am not sure how it would grip - still I assume they have a way). Just make sure there is no NO MORE NAILS involved in the fixing.

Alternatively, you could ask Ventrolla to fit new wooden parting beads or to re-fit the old ones if they are in good condition.

If you have paid a deposit then you do not want to lose it. My advice is, if you are concerned, talk to them about it, do not be bullied by them into doing it the way they find easiest and most profitable and remember that you are paying the bill so you call the shots.

Oh, if you decide not to use the UPVC parting bead make sure they reduce the bill accordingly.

No, I am sure our carpenter would not come to SE5, he is bearly able to cope with local demand and we are right on the SE Kent Coast about 1.5 hours from SE5

Sam

 

[thiambal]

Actually, looking that th Ventrolla website again

http://www.ventrolla.co.uk/sashwindowrenovation/sashwindowsealingsystem

I am not convinced about some of the other draft proofing. That strip they add to frame inside of the top of the upper sash has the potential to look ugly and is another piece of UPVC screaming out from your wood sash.

Also the strip along the bottom of the lower sash seems firstly unnecessary as the staff bead is a draft proof strip on it - why do you need two there when every other gap only has one?

Secondly, I would think that it would cause the lower sash to sit a mm or two away from the bottom of the frame. When I leave the bottom sash slightly raised in the rain I tend to get water collect in this gap - I imagine that this would eventually cause rot. Partly this is the design of the sash windows, but encouraging a gap by inserting a draft strip here, when there is already one on the staff bead seems foolish. Maybe others will disagree.

I know I have said this before but we have draft proofed only our staff beads and meeting rails and are more or less draft free.

 

[Rhian]

Oh don't worry about that - I was uncomfortable with them in the first place but we're on a tight timetable and they are literally the only ones who even came to quote it so it had to be done - I'm quite happy to argue my deposit back if it comes to that! I suspect they would not do it the way I wanted - we were also told that the view from the outside is totally the same - now shame on me for not knowing the anatomy of a sash window sufficiently well but if that's not true they've been misrepresenting themselves!
I really want to get things done right - if i'm spending hours and hours of my time trying to get things right like lime plastering etc there's no point in having the "professionals" come in and ruin the look with pvc!

....... of course my partner might have something else to say on this as he usually rolls his eyes whenever I suggest anything I've read on here!!

 

[thiambal]

I guess they would argue that they are not mis-representing themselves. Most sash windows these days are painted white, their UPVC insert is white and same shape as a parting bead and other than the addition of the pile strip it will look from a distance the same as the original.

The problems comes....

1) if you want to paint the windows in a colour that is not exactly the same shade as one of the plastic options (e.g. a traditional rather than brilliant white)
2) When the UPVC fades and gets dirty in a way wood would not.

For the anatomy of the sash window I would look at this link

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/article041.htm

It also has a good diagram of the sort of parting bead Ventrolla use. If you look at the second diagram - the gap I was refering two in the parting bead groove on my windows is produced by my 'pulley lining' being made of two pieces of wood meeting at this point rather than one piece of wood shown on this diagram. You can see how this may complicate siting a screw in such a small space.

I would combine looking at this with a good look at the ventrolla link already given to see exactly where they intend to make new cuts and add strips to your windows.

As for tight schedules - I remember them, mine is fast slipping as well

 

[Pford75]

Well, just got back from a week working overseas and we have our Ventrolla quote!

Wow! The initial quote is just over £26k, which excludes some replacement windows we require and excludes some repairs which could not be inspected on the first visit due to time restrictions. All in, it's likely to be more than £30k.

So the local carpenter with windowcare systems is going to be getting my business!

BTW - the Ventrolla parting bead is fairly obvious and doesn't look good in brown in my opinion

 

[Geoff Flegg]

This lot sell DIY kits where both the parting and staff beads are wooden, designed to accept brush pile strips.

http://www.sashwindowspecialist.com/kits.html

I've not used them yet, but I do seem to remember that someone posted here not long ago saying that the London agent (franchisee?) had done their windows for them, and how pleased they were with the result....

 

[jess marley]

Sorry to but in , but, will products advertised as weatherproofing, and those advertised as draughtproofing work in the same way to reduce noise?

 

[Rhian]

Geoff - we tried sash window specialists (in London) and they never replied to emails or phone calls and when they eventually did make an appointment they never turned up and never contacted us again!

Thiambal - we watched the dvd again and with copious use of the pause button it was obvious that it was pvc - can't believe that we didn't notice that before so thank you so much for telling us before it was too late!! We cancelled ventrolla (and told them it was because of the pvc) and they were fine about it and have refunded our deposit. We've now got someone from sash window workshop coming tomorrow morning so fingers crossed!

ps sorry for hijacking the thread!

 

[Mark]

Wow! The initial quote is just over £26k, which excludes some replacement windows we require and excludes some repairs which could not be inspected on the first visit due to time restrictions. All in, it's likely to be more than £30k.

£30K !?

Do you live in crystal palace ?

 

[thiambal]

Pford75 - wow £30,000 - and that is just to repair and draft proof - think yourselfs lucky you do not have to replace them all.

Rhian - cannot help thinking Ventrolla are missing a trick not replying by offering what the customer wants - so much for them employing skilled carpenters - more likely people training only to do things the 'Ventrolla' way. Kinda like the distinction between a mechanic and a chap who works in an exhaust and tyre place

 

[Rhian]

£30k!!!!! I thought £1800 was a lot (but that was only 5 windows - you must live in a green house!!!!)

thiambal - yes they will only do it the "ventrolla" way - we have sash shutters that work in exactly the same way as the windows and they wouldn't even touch those cos they didn't fit into their exact pattern of working (ie they didn't have glass in the middle cos that's the only difference!) I think we might have had a lucky escape and they really aren't addressing the market need - I guess most people don't have the same aversion to pvc as those on this forum do tho - what a shame!