Lewis Wind Farm

[Schoolmarm]

Biff I respect your knowledge and concerns on this subject, so having read all that post I have changed my mind. I used to be worried about global warming and oil running out.

Now I am not too worried anymore as it seems there is a benefit hidden in there to running out of fossil fuels. ie. humans are snookered. brill. That means we can do no more damage.

If we find altenative power supplies we will still be ravaging the planet.
I am half hoping fossil fuels run out before we can replace them with green alternatives.

That is how I feel today though. Tomorrow I might have cheered up a bit and started being keen again.

 

[Flyfisher]

Now I am not too worried anymore as it seems there is a benefit hidden in there to running out of fossil fuels. ie. humans are snookered. brill. That means we can do no more damage.

Humans are not alone in damaging ecosystems. Any species that reaches plague proportions will have an adverse effect on its environment and there are many examples of this happening quite naturally without any human intervention, e.g. spiny starfish destroying marine coral reefs. But such systems are resilient and will eventually recover, albeit perhaps in a changed state.

Even if Humans disappeared from the face of the planet, extinctions and other 'damage' would continue to occur just as they always have. Perhaps it's a human trait to try to preserve everything but it runs counter to the natural order of things where the reality is continual change - after all, that's why we're here.

 

[piper]

Perhaps it's a human trait to try to preserve everything but it runs counter to the natural order of things where the reality is continual change - after all, that's why we're here.

The problem is that we try to build permanent structures, like those buildings that members of this Forum are so keen to preserve. We construct great cities like London, which are rather difficult to abandon as the water rises. If we were nomadic and lived in yurts, we could easily just migrate and populate the formerly uninhabitable northern wastes as the ice retreats.
Trouble is, we've invented a thing called civilisation, with architecture and so forth.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Well Biff is miles ahead of us as he already has built his own yurt 8)

 

[Flyfisher]

Interesting point about nomads - they do tend to lead a more adaptable lifestyle and certainly seem to have less impact on the planet than our civilisations. But that's perhaps more to do with numbers than actual lifestyle.

I think we tend to have a somewhat self-important view of our 'permanence', but it's probably too difficult in practice to do anything other think of timescales in terms of our own lifetimes. So far, our civilisations and architecture are the tiniest blip in time. We think in hundreds of years, the planet works in millions.

It's also somewhat ironic that can go to such lengths to preserve our 'unnatural' architecture while at the same time decrying any spoiling of the 'natural' environment. Clearly it's quite acceptable to be selective when applying the naturalist's credo of 'take nothing but memories, leave nothing but footprints'.

It's a world of contradictions.

 

[biffvernon]

And for those who think I'm being pessimistic about our electricity outlook, there's this from the Beeb this morning:

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7210625.stm

and this from Bloomberg yesterday:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=atKik5hJJpZk&refer=uk

 

[Moo]

From the BBC link:

"Old coal plants, whose operating hours are limited under European legislation"

Another benefit of EU membership.

 

[CHRIS]

Interesting point about nomads - they do tend to lead a more adaptable lifestyle and certainly seem to have less impact on the planet than our civilisations. But that's perhaps more to do with numbers than actual lifestyle.

I think we have a growing some what nomadic group in the UK (not in the same realm as the Bedouin). With the rise in house prices beyond the reach of most younger families they end up with 2 houses (one they own further from work and one they rent locally via lodge allowences) that is why we have small cookie cutter style houses springing up all over the SE for people who stay away for a few nights a week. I know lots of people in the construction (40% in one office) and finance industries who do just this as they want to live in places like the Peak district but there is no work there to sustain the cost of buying a house at £300k. So what happens is they get a job in a major city and go home on a Thurs night.

Hence the massive lack of property, too many cars on roads and packed commuter trains

 

[Flyfisher]

And for those who think I'm being pessimistic about our electricity outlook, there's this from the Beeb this morning:

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7210625.stm

Yes, and just to rub in the message, did anyone notice the associated link on that page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4423456.stm) - basically an almost identical report from 2005. This is old news, but still no real action. Perhaps the Government should start implementing short power cuts now in order to give people a taste of things to come. That might focus our minds on the relative importance of moorland views and wading bird habitats compared with electricity on demand.

 

[Nemesis]

Actually, I think selective reduction of some of the population might be a better idea.

That way, demand would be decreased.

 

[biffvernon]

You want to do the selecting or be the selected?

 

[Flyfisher]

I think we have a growing some what nomadic group in the UK . . .

Interesting point. Somewhat similar to what people refer to as 'economic migration' although that phrase tends to be used for people travelling across countries, but the principle is similar, i.e. can't afford to live where the work is - even if it is within their own country.

 

[Nemesis]

You want to do the selecting or be the selected?

Possiby we should issue an electricity ration and remove those who err on the wrong side of it.

The problem is, really, that the messages are mixed in so many ways - the papers wail when shops aren't reaching their sales targets, we push more and more electrical goods onto people as the latest 'must have', then gnash teeth when electricity consumption rises.

I know people who use a large oven to heat one small ready meal, who wash stuff at far higher temps than is needed and for far longer, who leave lights burning and computer screens switched on permanently, and who also have large debts in order to pay for it all.

Economy isn't something instilled into the post war generation. I believe we 'have never had it so good...' as the man said.

 

[Moo]

Possiby [sic] we should issue an electricity ration and remove those who err on the wrong side of it.

'Remove' - in what sense?

 

[Nemesis]

Well - probably not by electric chair...

Maybe we should simply take them to another wild and uninhabitable continent and leave them there, as we used to do.

 

[Moo]

Cue for ideas about eco-friendly methods of elimination and, of course, disposal of the by-products.

 

[Flyfisher]

Possiby we should issue an electricity ration and remove those who err on the wrong side of it.

Well, it's an idea. A negative-looking move back to something similar to post-war austerity, coupled with capital punishment for transgressors, or a more positive-looking investment in the technologies and generating plants needed to sustain our current lifestyles in a less damaging way?
Tough choice.

 

[Nemesis]

Well it depends really if you wish to use the emotive term 'negative' about trying to curb insatiable usage or not.

I like the getting rid of some folks idea though. It's growing on me.

 

[Flyfisher]

Well, shooting the messenger saves having to think about sensible solutions to the problems facing us all.

 

[bower1]

'Remove' - in what sense?

By gradual population decrease, by limiting number of children and limiting immigration (which hides the true cost of increasing population in those countries which people migrate from).

I know its not a popular idea, but putting up wind turbines is hardly universally popular.