Lewis Wind Farm

[Schoolmarm]

Getting all concerned over the fact that landowners and business might make money out of such things seems, to me, to be missing the bigger picture.

I thought that this meant we were siting the wind farms only in places that suited greedy land owners and not siting them in less obtrusive places.

 

[Flyfisher]

But what does 'less obtrusive' mean, and who decides? What actually happens is that we end up with arguments, enquiries, delays and not enough action.

As for 'greedy landowners' and big business, well that's life. Get over it and worry about the big picture. It's a bit like refusing to buy house insurance because of greedy insurance companies. Sure, nobody likes paying for insurance but it's generally accepted to be a good thing, even though it lines the pockets of 'greedy businesses'.

Windfarms are an insurance policy. Maybe they'll work, maybe they won't, but can we afford the risk of not having them?

 

[Nemesis]

arguments, enquiries, delays and not enough action.

Right - we give up on the democratic planning process then. The free market shall prevail.

 

[Schoolmarm]

The big picture for me though may be different. I would like to see, or not see, some alternatives.

Why shouldn't they all be offshore? Apart from money is there another good reason?

And what about all the miles of running water we have in this country, can this not be utilised?

Am I a bit dim?

 

[Flyfisher]

Right - we give up on the democratic planning process then.

Sadly, probably not. We'll just continue to earnestly rearrange the deck chairs and not notice the real trouble we're in.

 

[Flyfisher]

The big picture for me though may be different.

No, the big picture is the same for everyone whether they like it or not.

I would like to see, or not see, some alternatives.

But what if there aren't any? How much time should be wasted arguing instead of doing. How much time do you spend debating the possible alternatives to fire insurance for your house?

Why shouldn't they all be offshore? Apart from money is there another good reason?

Unfortunately, money is usually the overriding reason, like it or not. I suspect we'll need them offshore as well, but it's inevitable that the cheaper ones will be built first. We didn't start drilling for oil in the North Sea until it became economically viable, why should we expect renewable energy to follow any different economic principles?

And what about all the miles of running water we have in this country, can this not be utilised?

I assume it can and perhaps it will also have to be. Again, cheapest first and keep building until we have enough.

The risk is that we're not doing anything fast enough. I really think that some power cuts would be a good idea to focus some real attention on the whole issue.

 

[Nemesis]

became economically viable, why should we expect renewable energy to follow any different economic principles?

Because maybe (as you seem to be arguing) the danger is such HM Gov should be picking up the tab and not leaving this as a free for all for developers?


Letters in The Herald:

http://tinyurl.com/22ts59

‘Suppose we took one of our islands – Islay or Lewis. Suppose, in conjunction with wind and wave power development, we turned the whole island into a gigantic advert for the environmental benefits of green power ... ’


Jim Hunter, Highlands and Islands Enterprise, November 2001



Renewables on Lewis is a complex and often unattractive story. Information is hard to come by as developers seek to protect 'commercial confidentiality' at the expense of environmental integrity and the long-term interests of local communities.

They are driven by the high profits available to privatised companies under the Renewables Obligation schemes. As these disproportionately reward early birds in the ‘renewables’ sector, there is considerable commercial pressure to truncate the environmental assessment process. There is no doubt that politicians of all shades are improperly uncritical of what is a powerful lobby, dominated by giants of the European nuclear industry. This is nowhere more true than on Lewis.

Far from contributing to 'sustainable development' the big Isle of Lewis windfarms provide a striking example of the 'green dream gone bad' and an opportunity to highlight the powerful public relations hype which is used to obscure the real impacts of the industrialisation of some of the UK's last remaining 'wilderness' areas. The following provides a summary of some of the issues - more detail can be found on other pages.



Our natural and cultural heritage is not a renewable resource

http://www.mwtlewis.org.uk/

 

[Schoolmarm]

No, the big picture is the same for everyone whether they like it or not.

Well this is what p#sses me off. I am living every day in many layers of clothing. I don't put the heating on until everyone is home from work. And then only for an hour at a time. Haven't used the timer this winter.

I don't fly.
I eat carefully so my food hasn't travelled miles and miles.
I am a fanatic with turning lights off.


So as well as living like this, I have to agree that wind farms are ok. I will still be penalised because of selfish wasters of electricity.
Something just isn't right there is it?

Basically it is all pointless and I am only achieving smaller electricity and oil bills.

 

[bower1]

But what if there aren't any?

If there aren't any alternatives, I think we are in even more trouble.

Unfortunately, money is usually the overriding reason, like it or not

True, but if this is the problem on the scale described, then that can be solved. The problem with your argument is that suggesting the solution to the problem is left to market forces, the very same people you are suggested cannot be trusted to do something about reducing the usage. Thats the job for a strong government.

The risk is that we're not doing anything fast enough. I really think that some power cuts would be a good idea to focus some real attention on the whole issue.

Maybe during some really windy weather?

 

[biffvernon]

In South Africa there are power cuts now. It's not very nice. And there are international consequences as coal, diamond and gold mine have to close, contributing to the price we pay for these scarce things. (Yes, I use diamond abrasives and gold electrical contacts.)

Off shore wind turbines are reckoned to cost about 50% more than on shore, 100% more for deeper water off shore. Despite these extra costs and because of on shore planning constraints the biggest planned and under construction wind farms are all off shore. The Thames Estuary, Wash and Lincolnshire Coast projects each dwarf the Hebridean.

Nimbyism dominates market forces.

There are other renewable sources but none that are as close to market as wind. Worldwide, deep-rock geothermal may eventually prove to be one of the biggest but it is currently the least developed.

Financial Times
Reuters
The Times (of South Africa)
CNN

No, we really do not want power cuts.

 

[Nemesis]

Lewis isn't in my backyard. Nor indeed Piper's.


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/terence-blacker/terence-blacker-nimbyism-should-be-applauded-not-despised-768090.html

 

[piper]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/terence-blacker/terence-blacker-nimbyism-should-be-applauded-not-despised-768090.html

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! (apart from the fact that he can't spell cliche - and I know it needs an accute accent too, but I don't know how to type one)

"The Thames Estuary, Wash and Lincolnshire Coast projects each dwarf the Hebridean." Great - I'm all for them. We can have one in Morecambe bay too, and off the West Cumbria coast, but NOT the Forest of Bowland scheme.

http://tinyurl.com/22ts59

Thanks for that link, Nemesis. Excellent letter from Dave Morris, I agree with every word of it, though the jury seems still to be out on whether disturbing peat deposits releases significant amounts of CO2.

That really is my last word on the matter. I tried not turning on the computer this morning, but it didn't work. Now I really have to do my tax return. Trying to earn some money would be a good idea too. No hard feelings Biff, we really must agree to differ on this one, and many thanks for your answers to my Lime questions.

 

[Nemesis]

Guardian eco-soundings today:

Disagreeable cost

If you are planning to appeal against nuclear power stations, motorways or airport extensions, forget it. The new planning bill making its way through parliament severely curtails the public's right to be heard, and now it seems that if you don't like your council's ruling on your application for a loft conversion or porch, then you should prepare to fork up, too. The Royal Town Planning Institute (RTPI) has discovered that anyone who objects to any local authority decision must pay £120 to have their appeal heard not by an independent tribunal but by other councillors. Robert Upton, secretary-general of the RTPI, is outraged: "Ordinary people will have to pay if they so much as disagree with the council," he says. Eco Soundings also notes that it doesn't seem right either that councils should be hearing appeals against their own decisions.

Coal model

German energy giant Eon wants to build an enormous new coal-fired power station at Kingsnorth, in Kent, which will drive a cart through the UK's emission targets, and last week angry students from the London School of Economics and elsewhere demonstrated against it. It was strange that on the very same day, English Heritage, the government's body protecting England's historical environment, announced it had begun "a three-year collaboration to explore and deliver initiatives that will make a tangible contribution to the goal of reducing the impact of climate change". With Eon

 

[biffvernon]

No hard feelings Biff,

Cliché

One easy way is to do things like that in Word (Insert then Symbol) and cut and paste.

 

[piper]

Cliché

Touché

 

[biffvernon]

 

[Flyfisher]

Costing The Earth - Radio 4 earlier today.
Interesting programme about how Britain is lagging way behind Europe in developing its renewable energy resources.

Listen again for 7 days via http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/costingtheearth.shtml

 

[biffvernon]

Indeed

 

[biffvernon]

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6363

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, I was somewhat surprised at the scale of our laggardness compared with Europe. UK added 1% renewable capacity since 1990 whereas Germany, for example, added 1% in one year alone - presumably as a result of the Government incentives I posted about previously. We seem to be talking a good story but achieving virtually nothing.