Letter to the public regarding boundary -OT

[Pford75]

Far be it from me to be the voice of doom here....but it strikes me that you purchased the land in full knowledge of the existing 'complications'. I take the point that the theoretical RoW is in a different position to what is being used in practice, but this is not exactly 'news' is it?

I really, really don't want dogs in my field. Or people

If one were being uncharitable, one might suggest that purchasing a field without a right of way would have been a more certain way of achieving this goal :wink:

Whilst I do understand your concerns about burning out of cars, dumping of mattresses etc. it doesn't sound as though those things have occurred (or are likely to) in your field. I worry that if we legislate and prepare for the small minority, then we destroy our liberal freedoms. I can understand that you want to put a stop to camping, but I would suggest that once the livestock is in place, this will naturally cease.

There is a great deal of what was previously 'common land' being bought up around the country and it is changing the face of villages across the UK. I don't necessarily believe that it is a good thing

 

[AMc]

While I would agree with the "no letter; mow the new path" approach above, I find it quite amazing the knots you get into in England over access rights. In Scotland everyone has the right of responsible access on foot or on horseback to all land (with the exception of the curtilege of houses and a few other exclusions) and there are really very few problems.

Fewer people/more land? Lots of the people cleared off the land to make way for sheep?

If it were mine I would make the route you want as inviting as possible and use the permitted path approach and make the rest reasonably unattractive with discreet "Private" signs.

I'm a very law abiding, rule following person (a.k.a. a feeble coward) but I do find "no turning" signs to be like a red rag to a bull - I'm almost tempted to stop and reverse into them just to wind them up As for "Keep of the grass"...

 

[Schoolmarm]

There is a great deal of what was previously 'common land' being bought up around the country and it is changing the face of villages across the UK. I don't necessarily believe that it is a good thing

This is absolutely not common land though.

 

[Schoolmarm]

The law presumes you will fence to the full extent of your own land. It will be up to the walkers to try and prove that they have any rights over it.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Quite right 'marm, they may prove they have a right to walk there in which case it will be very tempting to buy a lovely curly horned ram, with family, and see how people feel about strolling through then.

Far be it from me to be the voice of doom here....but it strikes me that you purchased the land in full knowledge of the existing 'complications'. I take the point that the theoretical RoW is in a different position to what is being used in practice, but this is not exactly 'news' is it?

If one were being uncharitable, one might suggest that purchasing a field without a right of way would have been a more certain way of achieving this goal :wink:

Guilty as charged, m'lord! I spent a long time um-ing and ah-ing over the purchase but at last decided it would have been far worse not to buy it, as it's our immediate view.

 

[another_richard]

I would, if you can, mow the grass along the route you wish the public to follow and leave the rest to go to seed.

You will essentially be setting out the footpath and by accident or design clarify the Definitive Statement in effect Express Dedication. One issue would be with the width, you may set out 8 metres when it is actually only 4 and thus may well have inadvertently 'expressly dedicated' a new footpath. As the whole field is not public it should be fair for the landowner to require the walkers to stick to the defined PROW, implied by the defined route or reminded using a polite notice.

Try here:
Express and Presumed Dedication
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/rights_of_way/knowledge_portal/rights_of_way_law/coming_into_existence.htm

Also the PINS website:
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/planning/countryside/rightsofway/rightsofway

Good luck with it.

 

[Penners]

I'm glad you were able to refurte the claim of the verges.

May I suggest that, if you're refurting your verges, you might like besnaggle your drumcotts at the same time?

 

[Flyfisher]

May I suggest that, if you're refurting your verges, you might like besnaggle your drumcotts at the same time?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sounds like a verse from Jabberwocky.

One issue would be with the width, you may set out 8 metres when it is actually only 4 and thus may well have inadvertently 'expressly dedicated' a new footpath. As the whole field is not public it should be fair for the landowner to require the walkers to stick to the defined PROW, implied by the defined route or reminded using a polite notice.

When I spoke to our footpaths officer, she told me that the definitive map for the footpath did not define a width and she suggested 1m would be adequate. I therefore left a 4 foot gap in the field fence. Following her visit the someone from the council (or their subcontractor) comes along periodically to cut the footpath and they only cut it about 1m wide.

This seems to make sense as ours is definitely a footpath. I assume a bridleway or a BOAT would need to be wider but for pedestrian-only use, 1m seems perfectly adequate.

 

[LadyArowana]

I assume a bridleway or a BOAT would need to be wider but for pedestrian-only use, 1m seems perfectly adequate.

So not a lot of Americans around your way then?

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

We have mown and strimmed, and driven over and over the grass. I've just tried a stroll along the restored footpath from the bottom to the top - very nice - yes, the gradient is steep, and I can see why they snaked away from it to even the hill out, but that's not really my responsibility. Perhaps I'll drive some boulders down there in the winter and wedge them in as I think it might become a bit impossible if it's very wet. Maybe a reinforced post along the edge or our fence, or a tree, for them to grab onto, would help too.

Thanks for the links Richard - interesting reading and very useful.

A metre? We've really spoiled the walkers then!

 

[Flyfisher]

So not a lot of Americans around your way then?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, lots actually but they must all be fit, military types. :lol:


Joce, I asked our footpath officer about the width because I was erecting a fence (the field was not fenced at the time) and wanted to be sure I left a suitable gap that no-one could legitimately complain about. We had a similar issue to your situation, though to a lesser extent, that the footpath wasn't well defined and people would enter the field at a few points. My reasoning was that people might complain if I changed "their" route by fencing the field, so I wanted confirmation from the footpath officer that my changes were perfectly acceptable and they would not require me to change anything should there be any complaints. Thus, I agreed the position of the footpath opening in the new fence and the width, as described.

In the event, there were no complaints (well, not to me anyway) and people seem happy to stick to the footpath as currently maintained.

I appreciate your situation is somewhat different, given the extent of the unofficial paths, but hopefully it will all work out for you - especially if you have the footpaths officer on your side from the start.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks FF! xx

 

[vicky whitworth]

I have a slightly different view with regards putting up a notice. I think it's better to tell people what you are doing and why for a number of reasons: it is transparent; it limits rumours and reduces anxiety about what might be going to happen; it treats people as adults even if they choose not to behave as such; it's neighbourly; it's educational.

I think it's about striking the right tone in the communication.

We live down a lane (of unknown ownership) which has a footpath running down it. Our cottage directly abuts the lane. Throughout our building work I have put up a poster on the post outside the cottage to apologise to the walkers for the inconvenience of the building work and for vans that are parked in the lane. I have used this to explain what we are doing to the cottage and why. And I have put our names and phone number on it and asked people to ring us or knock on the door if they want to talk about it more. We have only ever had positive comments from people about how interested they are to know what's going on. It's worked for us.

 

[LadyArowana]

I have a slightly different view with regards putting up a notice. I think it's better to tell people what you are doing and why for a number of reasons: it is transparent; it limits rumours and reduces anxiety about what might be going to happen; it treats people as adults even if they choose not to behave as such; it's neighbourly; it's educational.

I think it's about striking the right tone in the communication.

We live down a lane (of unknown ownership) which has a footpath running down it. Our cottage directly abuts the lane. Throughout our building work I have put up a poster on the post outside the cottage to apologise to the walkers for the inconvenience of the building work and for vans that are parked in the lane. I have used this to explain what we are doing to the cottage and why. And I have put our names and phone number on it and asked people to ring us or knock on the door if they want to talk about it more. We have only ever had positive comments from people about how interested they are to know what's going on. It's worked for us.

Very happy to hear you have had such a positive experience, but I think a lot depends on the area you are in and the people that you are dealing with. In the same way that some cities and streets are safer than others I think there are areas where this approach will be seen as a nice neighbourly action and others where it would be simply an invitation to lift a few expensive tools!

 

[JoceAndChris]

I think that's true. I'm only a spit from a dodgy town and that makes a difference - the volume of people up here is high, and it could be anybody. Just the other day I rescued 2 little lost Polish girls, crying in the field because they couldn't find their way back. Most people, like those two naughties, are lovely, but then there will be the odd group of kids who might think it funny to burn your house down...

Still, it is nice to read Vicky's story and know there are some pockets of the country where crime and nuisance behaviour don't make much impact.

 

[vicky whitworth]

I do understand that there are places which are less pleasant than others. But I can't see how putting up a notice explaining what you are doing and why would anymore invite someone to steal a 'few expensive tools' than if you have no notice. In fact the police say that it's less easy to steal from people you feel you 'know' than it is from those you regard as total strangers. I'm not suggesting the notice lists an inventory and has an arrow pointing to an unlocked shed.

We have horrid people here too. We had our mower and trimmer stolen out of a locked shed a few years ago. But I'm determined not to let that affect my world view too much. The man who did it is cursed by me and hopefully will come to a sad end. The man who shot my cat with a 22 rifle many years ago was cursed by me, and a month later came off his motorbike and lost an eye and a leg. That is what I call justice.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oooh, no one cross Vicky!!
But how cruel and sad about the cat. I'd join in your cursing of him.

I suppose with the notice thing it all depends what the notice is about - hello I live at X and my number is - and I'm putting a stop to your walks in my field permanently, is more inflammatory than the temporary inconvenience caused by your interesting house-rescue. I agree people like to be informed and it ends panic and makes things clear, which was my initial motivation, but there could be the odd one who might decide to take a bit of vengeance if they felt that their weekend entertainment had been spoiled.

I think you have suffered less crime than us. Since living here ( now three years) I have probably made around 50 calls to the police regarding motorbikers across the fields, had the car smashed up three times, had a serious burglary, called the council around 15 times over dumping incidents, and seen the serious, many £1000s worth of vandalism, which happened in the Crematorium ( just below our new field).

That reads rather bitterly and don't mean it to. I knew what we were buying - a vulnerable property on the edge of a town that entails a certain amount of guardianship of 150 acre tract of wild land. And I'm sure it would be just the same on the edge of many, if not most English towns.

 

[Lime]

I can't see how putting up a notice explaining what you are doing and why would anymore invite someone to steal a 'few expensive tools' than if you have no notice.

The notice would draw attention to the land owner, otherwise most strollers-come-thieves would not know who or what had made the changes.
Once the owner is identified they are a sitting duck.

 

[Johnboy]

We have horrid people here too. We had our mower and trimmer stolen out of a locked shed a few years ago. But I'm determined not to let that affect my world view too much. The man who did it is cursed by me and hopefully will come to a sad end. The man who shot my cat with a 22 rifle many years ago was cursed by me, and a month later came off his motorbike and lost an eye and a leg. That is what I call justice.

If I send you my list of horrid people, any chance you could umm ...... :wink:

 

[Moo]

The man who shot my cat with a 22 rifle many years ago was cursed by me, and a month later came off his motorbike and lost an eye and a leg. That is what I call justice.

Good for you, Vicky - can't beat a decent curse, can you?

The only thing that kept me sane during a long-drawn-out boundary dispute with a most unpleasant neighbour (cost us both ££££££ in solicitors fees) was the curse I put upon him. My word, did I punch the air when I learned that he'd dropped dead in the city centre!