Kitchen Design

[Flyfisher]

In a period property, I think the most important thing is to make sure as little of the original fabiric is altered as possible . . .

I entirely agree, which is why we put our new kitchen in a new extension, so as not to alter any of the original fabric of the house. Incidentally, the previous kitchen (which was not the original one anyway) remains more or less as it was, although we now mainly use it as a laundry room - so still a utilitarian room as it was previously.

Perhaps I'm being too pedantic about what constitutes an 'historic style'? Perhaps a mix of new and old is the 21st century 'style'? But I stick to my basic point that few people (if any) honestly wish to live a truly authentic 'period' lifestyle. They might like to have a fireplace and a bread oven in their kitchen as a talking point and reminder of times past, but they certainly don't want to be reliant on them for their daily needs. The 'good old days' weren't really all that good were they?

. . . but if one needs extra cupboards, why not have them made with panel doors and beaded edging to the carcasses for example (something I wish I had done) and use period sensitive colours, or have a scrub top table, even if it isn't used for preparing food.

Why not indeed? As we've agreed, it's just a matter of personal choice. All I've asked is what sort of 'historic style' do you think such 'designer' touches create when the space is also filled with modern technology on which the home owner depends for their modern lifestyle? It's certainly not historically authentic, so how should we describe it?

 

[Flyfisher]

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[88v8]

....the space is also filled with modern technology on which the home owner depends for their modern lifestyle? It's certainly not historically authentic...

No, but one can still pay heed to the visuals, eschew laminate for example. With the exception of the oven, all the technology can be hidden behind door fronts. And the lighting can be olde or totally concealed.
Or, come to that, the whole modern gubbins can be concealed behind folding doors, as I would illustrate if I could remember the size limit for upload mutter mutter.

Ivor

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, as I've said before, I entirely agree that there are no rules and it's a matter of personal choice.

My question was how should we describe such decorative arrangements? Can we honestly call them 'period' (I don’t think so) or should we refer to them as '??? Style'? A bit like 'Georgian style' light switches, etc, because they can't possibly be genuine.

 

[malcolm]

I am less sensitive to period stuff. I like period stuff when it is there and I do try very hard to keep it, but if I need to knock out a commercial kitchen with damp up the walls botched in modern times then I will do my own thing. Historical techniques are handy for getting rid of the damp, but after that I'm proudly going to do my own thing! Someone else can change it later if they want to.

The horrid American fridge moved out with the ex so I have some redesigning to do. My whole kitchen was designed around that monstrosity!

 

[Abi Cott]

I'm in a bit of a quandary about mine.

Ideally I'd like to put the kitchen in the cellar/sidie. (However that would require removal of a stone shelf which my CO isn't too happy about.) If I could get LBC I would go hyper modern with the units to make the original features of the space stand out in contrast.

If I can't get LBC then the kitchen will have to stay in the current space which is the first room you enter from the street. Whilst I like the idea of a contrasting hyper modern kitchen, I don't think it would work as part of a kitchen diner reception so I'd be looking for a more tradition/period feel. I must admit i prefer new to look new and original to look original so I'm not quite sure how I'd pull it off.

 

[a twig]

Use glass to link the two, "works" for almost every Grand Designs / Restoration Man...

 

[Abi Cott]

Use glass to link the two, "works" for almost every Grand Designs / Restoration Man...

:lol:

 

[Zebra]

Hey malcolm. I'm glad your kitchen planning is able to move forwards, although it sounds like it's come at the cost of some turbulence.
So what's the latest idea for the kitchen?

 

[malcolm]

Hi Zebra, I have to admit the last bit of work done on the house was done by you Thanks for doing that! I've been really busy - I've been out of the country for about half the time, and have found a social life so have been really happy too. I did manage a spring clean - it took 3 months and the house is spotless.

I have a cunning plan to take a break from April and get the house through building regs. I might put some more cabinets or a table where the monster fridge was going to go, but that means I need to think about where to put the fridge again....

 

[88v8]

....removal of a stone shelf ...

Jolly useful.
In our previous house, I had a slate shelf made to fit in a larder cupboard. Great as a fridge overflow, for and keeping desserts cool, salads, cooked meat, etc.
Stone would be even better as it holds the cold, so to speak.
Exactly the sort of feature that should be preserved in the Period house, preserved or created for that matter.

Ivor

 

[Zebra]

Hi Zebra, I have to admit the last bit of work done on the house was done by you Thanks for doing that!

For anyone who might be wondering what malcolm is referring to, here is a picture of Giraffe "helping" malcolm cut down the backing board for the electrical meter, which we moved.

That was in April!
I'm glad you sound happy. I know it can be a great psychological boost to have a big clean-up, and the house doesn't mind if progress slows down, it will still be there, waiting patiently when you are ready to go on.
A break from work can be a great idea, to really focus on tackling those bigger tasks. I took two consecutive summers off, and it was heaven!

 

[Abi Cott]

....removal of a stone shelf ...

Jolly useful.
In our previous house, I had a slate shelf made to fit in a larder cupboard. Great as a fridge overflow, for and keeping desserts cool, salads, cooked meat, etc.
Stone would be even better as it holds the cold, so to speak.
Exactly the sort of feature that should be preserved in the Period house, preserved or created for that matter.

Ivor

The room in question has two stone shelves and two cold store areas. Only one is an issue as it prevents the room being repurposed in any way. It's just at the wrong height.

I fully agree that this is the sort of item that should be preserved or reinstated. In other areas my plans involve exactly that. Unfortunately with this particular shelf in situ the room will only ever function as a rather impractical storage space.

I'm thinking of requesting LBC to reduce it in depth rather than remove it entirely. That might be a good balance between ensuring the history and original purpose of the room is preserved and making the space more practical.

When I eventually move on I hope to present a property that will appeal to an owner/occupier rather than another slum landlord, and making this space work for a modern occupant could be key in achieving that.

 

[MikeG]

.....For anyone who might be wondering what malcolm is referring to, here is a picture of Giraffe "helping" malcolm cut down the backing board for the electrical meter, which we moved.
IMG_20170409_123125499-918x1632002.jpg.......

Ah, role play on the "Safe Working at Heights" course! :lol:

 

[Flyfisher]

....removal of a stone shelf ...

Jolly useful.
In our previous house, I had a slate shelf made to fit in a larder cupboard. Great as a fridge overflow, for and keeping desserts cool, salads, cooked meat, etc.
Stone would be even better as it holds the cold, so to speak.

It would, of course, also hold the heat, so to speak :wink:

If my basic physics is correct, a big lump of stone can only slow down the rate at which it changes temperature but if the ambient temperature remains the same then the stone will always be at ambient temperature. Thus, if there is a suddenly hot day after a run of average days then the stone will likely remain cooler than ambient for that day. Conversely, if there is a prolonged heatwave followed by a cold day the the stone will likely remain warmer than ambient during that cold day.

In a similar vein, we have granite worktops in our kitchen and some visitors have remarked that they wouldn't like them as they always feel cold. They are quite correct in that they FEEL cold but the fact is that they are the same temperature as other things in the kitchen. Granite (and similar materials) FEEL cold because the fingers that touch them are (usually) considerably warmer and because granite is a good conductor of heat it draws heat from fingers much faster than, say wood or a carpet, with the result that the finger cools down almost immediately and this is interpreted as 'being cold', even though the granite, wood and carpet are all the exact same temperature.

That's not to say the perception of cold is not important for our comfort, but it's probably risky to rely on for keeping perishable food safe :wink:


As for the stone shelf not being in a convenient position, would the CO allow it to be moved to somewhere more convenient?

 

[malcolm]

A break from work can be a great idea, to really focus on tackling those bigger tasks. I took two consecutive summers off, and it was heaven!

The photo is hilarious! I didn't look up at the time to see it - I was busy trying to get a straight cut. The electricity was off, but I don't recall why we didn't use a clamp on the workshop bench (other than there being no light in there).

My 2 month contract from last summer is the contract that keeps on giving, and on the same rate too! Taking summer 2015 off was very productive and I have a trusty crew to call on now so hopefully 2018 will knock it on the head!

 

[Zebra]

The photo is hilarious! I didn't look up at the time to see it - I was busy trying to get a straight cut. The electricity was off, but I don't recall why we didn't use a clamp on the workshop bench (other than there being no light in there).

Naa, I think we couldn't be bothered. Anyway, where's the fun in that? Everything should be cut on a bucket.
Hurrah for flexible contracts. Alas, I am permanent now, but would contract again if Giraffe and I ever were to seek out a new Savannah.....

 

[Abi Cott]

....removal of a stone shelf ...

Jolly useful.
In our previous house, I had a slate shelf made to fit in a larder cupboard. Great as a fridge overflow, for and keeping desserts cool, salads, cooked meat, etc.
Stone would be even better as it holds the cold, so to speak.

It would, of course, also hold the heat, so to speak :wink:

If my basic physics is correct, a big lump of stone can only slow down the rate at which it changes temperature but if the ambient temperature remains the same then the stone will always be at ambient temperature. Thus, if there is a suddenly hot day after a run of average days then the stone will likely remain cooler than ambient for that day. Conversely, if there is a prolonged heatwave followed by a cold day the the stone will likely remain warmer than ambient during that cold day.

In a similar vein, we have granite worktops in our kitchen and some visitors have remarked that they wouldn't like them as they always feel cold. They are quite correct in that they FEEL cold but the fact is that they are the same temperature as other things in the kitchen. Granite (and similar materials) FEEL cold because the fingers that touch them are (usually) considerably warmer and because granite is a good conductor of heat it draws heat from fingers much faster than, say wood or a carpet, with the result that the finger cools down almost immediately and this is interpreted as 'being cold', even though the granite, wood and carpet are all the exact same temperature.

That's not to say the perception of cold is not important for our comfort, but it's probably risky to rely on for keeping perishable food safe :wink:


As for the stone shelf not being in a convenient position, would the CO allow it to be moved to somewhere more convenient?

I'm confident your physics is exactly correct. Particularly regarding granite worktops.

This is the best photo I have of the space in question. It is the lower of the two shelves that is an issue. It's about 1200mm/4' from the floor. 1' lower I could work around it 1' higher ditto. It's just in a sodding inconvenient location.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

ooooo Livias--you are just the person I need, how's it best to convey my problem to you--- a series of images? do you have an email that you could pm to me? Joss x

 

[Feltwell]

How is this for a period kitchen. It's in a house that was for sale not far from me last year. When we moved into our house, all the old lead pipes were till left in the kitchen, even though they weren't connected. It was obvious that there was once a wall mounted sink by the back door with hot and cold taps straight out of the pipes. How on earth did they wash up 100 years ago without counter tops. Was it just a scrub top table that got used for everything? Our kitchen has a quarry floor, scrub top table, range size cooker where a range would have been and cod period cupboards. I think it could approach the period feel if I was allowed to change the colours, so rather than the polite pinterest green, I could use dark brown on the cupboards and window frames, and perhaps have a painted dado, but I know which battles to pick and that isn't one of them!

I missed this one! Very nice PP, both the "original" kitchen and yours. With a better job made of the unit in the window, hiding the dishwasher & oven, that could be a great compromise between originality and practicality. The cupboards on the left near the window look to have been added at the same time as the sink unit, the doors are the same and don't quite match the original ones nearer the camera. A better job could have been done of making them blend in but even so full credit & well done to the owners for not "modernising" it and ripping the old cupboards & range out. Those cupboards and drawers are lovely - just think how many of those have ended up on a bonfire over the years

When the previous people moved into here, the kitchen had been part butchered already - Victorian larder cupboard and drawers still in place, as was the range, but the original arch-topped sash window had been ripped out, as had it's stone cill - broken up and found in bits in a rockery :evil: - and a smaller nasty softwood casement put in it's place with the worst brickwork job ever done to fill the gap underneath - all to stop the worktop crossing the window. I wish they'd done what you've done.

However to compound matters, the previous owners then ripped out the nasty 70's kitchen cabinets (fine with that!) but also pulled down the lath & plaster ceiling and plasterboarded, but worst of all they ripped out the perfectly restorable range :evil: . Literally ripped out - a sledgehammer was used I was told. They did put a decent fitted kitchen in that is at least in a style that doesn't argue with the house, but with laminate worktops and a modern sink. It was at least well fitted, they paid someone else to do it luckily, as their DIY was not of a good standard.

I will reinstate the cill and sash window at some point, but will keep them shorter & higher than original so the worktop does not cross them.

Washing up without a counter top? They didn't even have taps here - the hand pump & borehole (or well - not sure which!) at the end of the garden are still in place. At some point I need to get brave and investigate with a spade if it's a well or not, and if it is just hope the wooden cover is intact!