Help! Run out of rainwater.

[Cloudscape]

you just saved me from making an embarassing phone call to the Fire Brigade.

I was also going to suggest a bowser - your own tank that you could fill and transport.

About the Fire Brigade... if you had a fire, would they bring a water supply with them? It wouldn't be nice if you called them out and they just ran about looking for a hydrant.

 

[Aidan]

Borehole, long term. How deep is the existing well?

It may be worth monitoring the pressure at the available mains connection. The pressure generally goes up at night, due to reduced demand. The pressure variation would be less in a rural area. The supplier only has to provide 1 bar (I think) at the property boundary, but 6 or 7 bar is not unusual. The point being that there may be adequate pressure to fill a storage cistren overnight. They won't guarantee any pressure above the statutory minimum; Thames Water have been reducing water pressures to reduce wastage through leaks, so some high-rise blocks have found that their water pressure has suddenly become inadequate.

If the former owner has just bunged the smallest polythene pipe in the trench, you may have a very small flow rate anyway due to the restriction of the pipe. Did he obtaned permission to run the service pipe through someone else's property? Have you checked that the two pipe ends are connected, or that the pipe isn't obstructed?

A booster pump can't suck water out of the mains, there should be a mains-fed break tank at the lowest point and the pump draws water from the tank.

 

[Aidan]

that looks like a nato type hitch on there , i doubt its a military bowser though it being bright yellow.

It's an airfield refuelling bowser. The tank looks like a plastic domestic oil tank.

http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicle/,32,/21304/Flight_Line.htm

Or from the same place, you could get one of these.

http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicle/,33,/19132/Dennis_Fire_Engine.htm

The water'd probably taste a bit strange.

 

[chuckey]

I would investigate the water pumping station a bit more. As I see it it is a brick built underground pit like a sewage inspection pit. In it the "mains water" pipe runs with a cock, non return valve, feeding your pump which feeds your new piece of pipe. The 110V feed to the pump runs in a bit of cable alongside your pipe. A waterproof isolator switch would also be fitted near the pump. The whole thing being covered with a screwdown inspection pit cover. £1000 tops for the complete kit and an annual bottle of scotch for the landowner. One thing you will have to do is to get a pump that is suitabley rated for the pressure to get the water up the hill. As said every 10m in height = 1Bar or 15 psi. Theoreticaly your pump could be used to just increase the mains pressure, i.e mains minimum pressure = 40psi, 90 psi needed, therefore pump pressure = 90-40 = 50psi or 3.5 Bar. BUT the pump body must be rated for the maximum static pressure for when the mains water is turned off for maintenence, i.e. 90 psi or 6 bar. Also you will have to work out your flow rate at this wanted pressure. Discharge the water into your storage tank and fit a couple of level switches, one low one to start the pump and a high one to stop it. Or modify a ball valve to operate a microswitch to give a similar action. Fit a 110 V isolation transformer and isolator to power the pump and you are done.
Frank

 

[Flyfisher]

Those bowsers seems a bit expensive to me.
I'd be looking for something more like this: http://www.ad-mart.co.uk/water_bowser_300_gal-o259837.html.

 

[JoceAndChris]

What you need for the winter rains is a very large butt. I'm sure a google search will produce the goods.

There are plenty of large butts round here, what are needed are more erections so water may pour from them into the butts.

Sorry. Thanks for the thought.

About the Fire Brigade... if you had a fire, would they bring a water supply with them? It wouldn't be nice if you called them out and they just ran about looking for a hydrant.

I worry about that too, I'd have to make sure to tell them to bring their own. Also, the gate's locked at night and often at weekends, but I guess they'd smash their way through.

Borehole, long term. How deep is the existing well?

I don't know. I suppose I can see 10 metres, then it's just impenetrable black.

It may be worth monitoring the pressure at the available mains connection. The pressure generally goes up at night, due to reduced demand. The pressure variation would be less in a rural area. The supplier only has to provide 1 bar (I think) at the property boundary, but 6 or 7 bar is not unusual.

So how do you monitor pressure?

If the former owner has just bunged the smallest polythene pipe in the trench, you may have a very small flow rate anyway due to the restriction of the pipe. Did he obtaned permission to run the service pipe through someone else's property? Have you checked that the two pipe ends are connected, or that the pipe isn't obstructed?

No, the pipe is a full-on proper huge water pipe that he went to great lengths to get hold of. It's diameter is appropriate, as well as its composition.

Permission- no. He was a law unto himself. A I mentioned before, the cottage has an ancient right written on yellowed paper: I have it upstairs.

The land is problematic anyway. It used to belong to Beacon Cottage but was sold off in the 20's. A man owns it, but it's managed by Escritt & Barrell. Nothing happens on this land except for dog walking, teenage parties, and rabbits. You can't farm here, it's too steep, and I believe the townspeople have recreational rights: it's covered with footpaths.

I was having kittens about the informality of it all but no-one has queried that pipe.

The ends of the pipe are stuffed with stones and camouflage, no connection has taken place. Our end of it abruptly finishes in the middle of the ha-ha. The other end is now covered by nettles.

I would investigate the water pumping station a bit more. As I see it it is a brick built underground pit like a sewage inspection pit. In it the "mains water" pipe runs with a cock, non return valve, feeding your pump which feeds your new piece of pipe. The 110V feed to the pump runs in a bit of cable alongside your pipe. A waterproof isolator switch would also be fitted near the pump. The whole thing being covered with a screwdown inspection pit cover. £1000 tops for the complete kit and an annual bottle of scotch for the landowner. One thing you will have to do is to get a pump that is suitabley rated for the pressure to get the water up the hill. As said every 10m in height = 1Bar or 15 psi. Theoreticaly your pump could be used to just increase the mains pressure, i.e mains minimum pressure = 40psi, 90 psi needed, therefore pump pressure = 90-40 = 50psi or 3.5 Bar. BUT the pump body must be rated for the maximum static pressure for when the mains water is turned off for maintenence, i.e. 90 psi or 6 bar. Also you will have to work out your flow rate at this wanted pressure. Discharge the water into your storage tank and fit a couple of level switches, one low one to start the pump and a high one to stop it. Or modify a ball valve to operate a microswitch to give a similar action. Fit a 110 V isolation transformer and isolator to power the pump and you are done.
Frank

Frank, I wish I could understand your posting as it seems extremely knowledgable, I'm going to make Chris and my plumber read that. The landowner would be the Council presumably. Are you saying that the whole thing would be concealed underground within the road? At the moment the pipe finishes in the bushes, but it needs taking into the road, another 15 metres, I reckon, to hit that mains point. So 15 metres of road- the end of the cul de sac- dug up, but I've seen how quickly they can work and surely it must be possible?

I like the idea of a borehole and I think the world could well be a different place when/if we sell this house in the future. Boreholes may well be common parlance and common knowledge by then. But as things stand, this cottage went very cheap for what it is, because of the lack of mains, and was extremely difficult to sell. OK, that was a lot to do with the previous owner's admirable honesty about the fact water runs out. And also it's not everyones' cup of tea, no neighbours, no road here. But what we do has to take into account not only environmental issues but also saleability - would you buy a house not on mains?

Anyway, thanks for the tremendous contribution. We've been battling with this for a year and not learned as much as I've learned today.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Those bowsers seems a bit expensive to me.
I'd be looking for something more like this: http://www.ad-mart.co.uk/water_bowser_300_gal-o259837.html.

That is so reasonable. I spend more on shoes.

 

[ilona73]

Those bowsers seems a bit expensive to me.
I'd be looking for something more like this: http://www.ad-mart.co.uk/water_bowser_300_gal-o259837.html.

That is so reasonable. I spend more on shoes.

Mee too much to my husbands dismay! :roll: :roll:

 

[DaveBrigg]

After years of postings about damp, I think this is the first time anyone on the forum has complained about a lack of moisture in their property.

 

[outlaw]

I had a feeling that my technical inadequacy might be found out.

In which case there's only one thing for it, Joce:

Is that what they call an Archemedis screw? sorry about the spelling.

Tony

 

[outlaw]

I had a feeling that my technical inadequacy might be found out.

In which case there's only one thing for it, Joce:

Is that what they call an Archemedis screw? sorry about the spelling.

Tony

Oooops just read the rest of the thread and the question has been answered
The bowser shown is a simple device, It is an oil tank on a trailer, not hard to knock up if you know a local lad with a welder and a new tank plonked on it. If you bought a few of them, you might get a bulk discount. Then you could use a transfer pump to fill them all up from you home made bowser.

Tony

Tony

 

[CHRIS]

I had a feeling that my technical inadequacy might be found out.

In which case there's only one thing for it, Joce:

The worlds largest Archimedes screw is at the Spillers Mill in East London - I had a chance last year to go in and have a look whilst doing some work in the Dock.

http://www.thederelictsensation.com/c_allen/allen_lvla_13.htm

 

[AMc]

I would look at increasing your rainwater storage as much as possible for everything but cooking and drinking. The systems I've seen where basically like an oil storage tank (buried), filteration and/or purification system and a pump. Perhaps cheaper than a pump 1/2 a mile away or a mile of pipe. I guess it depends on how much water you need and what your rainfall is like.
I was looking at this as a 'green' option until I did the cost/benefit equation and as we have mains water there was little advantage.

I can also recommend The Green Building Forum as a good place to ask questions about off grid supplies in general and this thread in particular
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=1822&page=1#Item_0

You could also try "pumps and pumping equipment" at www.yell.com I had some useful advice from a local company about pumping sewage back up to the main which thankfully didn't prove to be necessary.

 

[Schoolmarm]

ooops too.

 

[JoceAndChris]

After years of postings about damp, I think this is the first time anyone on the forum has complained about a lack of moisture in their property.

:lol: I have a feeling that putting a dehumifier in half the rooms and emptying them every day into the rainwater tank would be another solution to the shortage. Whilst nothing is coming out of the taps there's a pool of water on the kitchen floor. :roll:

I would look at increasing your rainwater storage as much as possible for everything but cooking and drinking.

I can also recommend The Green Building Forum as a good place to ask questions about off grid supplies in general and this thread in particular http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=1822&page=1#Item_0

You could also try "pumps and pumping equipment" at http://www.yell.com I had some useful advice from a local company about pumping sewage back up to the main which thankfully didn't prove to be necessary.

Out of interest, what happened to your sewage? I don't like to think about ours: there's an ancient soakaway and mysteriously it all just melts away. At that spot the trees are HUGE.

Thanks for the splendid advice AMc. But I think increasing the rainwater storage is not possible. The roof here is very large, all that water is channelled into the greta big tank... The rainwater from the workshop's big roof is also collected. And bless the previous owner, he's even put guttering on the sheds and that water collects into butts for garden use.

Lincolnshire doesn't have particularly high rainfall compared to other parts of England. If I was going to manage just with rainfall, I'd need to bathe just once a week in the water my husband had used. :shock:

 

[Aidan]

I don't know. I suppose I can see 10 metres, then it's just impenetrable black.

So how do you monitor pressure?

Drop a weight down the well on a bit of string to see how deep it goes. If hand-dug, it's probably 3' + wide and stone-lined. They'd stop digging when they hit water, 19th C sub-aqua gear not being generally available. The water level will drop in summer and with other draw-offs. A bore-hole could go much deeper, the water would probably be always available and the deeper aquifers are less liable to contamination by surface water.

Put a pressure gauge on it. P = density x g x h (in SI units) with no flow up the service pipe. The question is whether there is adequate pressure to get to the proposed storage tank or booster set, and, if not, whether the pressure would be adequate at night. Having got a pressure gauge on the mains supply, you'd need to go and see what it reads at the dead of night.

I've just been looking at requirements for service pipes & the suppliers generally want to inspect them before the trench is filled. They should be 750mm deep (drat, double drat, etc..) and have a copper tracing wire attached. You need to plug the ends of your pipe (see Screwfix) until it gets connected.

I'm dubious about having a pump, water meter and metered electric supply one someone else's land. The danger is that the pump will pull a negative pressure in the mains and siphon the contents of someone's pond/bath/bidet into the drinking water supply. A pump connected directly to the mains can't draw more than 12 l/min, unless you get permission (Regulation G6.1). You'd normally expect to have a break cistern with a type A air gap supplying the pump. Your plumber should know about this. I'm also presently looking into bore-holes, so to speak, re ground source heat pumps.

Someone else (I think on this forum) mentioned that old milk tankers could be bought for water storage, the advantage being that they were insulated and suitable for potable water. The disadvantage being that they're usually big and not very pretty.

 

[Aidan]

:lol: I have a feeling that putting a dehumifier in half the rooms and emptying them every day into the rainwater tank would be another solution to the shortage. Whilst nothing is coming out of the taps there's a pool of water on the kitchen floor. :roll:

That is done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator

 

[AMc]

Out of interest, what happened to your sewage?

We're mains connected.

Our house once owned an orchard and market garden, when the owner passed on the estate sold the house to a property developer who built new houses on the land and sold the old house unmodernised.

The previous owners tried to split the house into 3 then 2 dwellings. They laid new water feeds in and a new soil pipe out, but their piping wasn't designed to pick up the soil pipes from the rear 'dwelling'. When we were digging out to connect the downstairs WC at the far end of the house to the sewer there was some debate if there was enough fall to join the main sewer. I investigated a centrifuge pump to shift the waste from a chamber near the back up and along far enough to drop into the existing pipes. In the end we were able to dig a deeper soil run and maintain the necessary 1:80 fall without a pump.

I never fancied the idea of a tank full of poo under my drive and a pump to shift it. I'm a great fan of simplicity and minimising moving parts and points of failure. I really didn't like the idea of servicing this arrangement if/when it went wrong.

Out of interest, what happened to your sewage? I don't like to think about ours: there's an ancient soakaway and mysteriously it all just melts away. At that spot the trees are HUGE.

There is nothing wrong with that arrangement, as long as it is dealing with your current 'load' this is pretty much what fancy reed bed filtration systems and other green sewage systems do. The waste is moved away from the house where bacteria can break down the waste and the excess water runs off into the water table.

It would ring some alarm bells for your existing 'clean' water supply or any new boreholes if there isn't some separation though. Have you had your drinking water tested?

The more I read about your problem the more tempted I'd be to get a quote for digging a 1 mile trench to a pressurised, treated mains water supply...or a second hand JCB and a mile of polypipe.

 

[JoceAndChris]

My apologies to everyone for the length of this post. But sorting this particular problem out is key to a happy life here.

You story is so interesting AMc, thanks for explaining that.

Everyone who's looked at our soakaway (without getting too close, though, obviously), have declared it fine. It's a long way from the well so it doesn't worry us.

I know a man with a digger and have some handy men around me who'd be prepared to put in this new mile long water pipe, if it came to that. The pipe itself would be the most expensive thing, but with a DIY approach I don't think it would be prohibitive.

I'd just like to throw my kitchen wall into this debate.

It's very damp, and the rainwater tank which is located on the other side of it could be responsible if it's leaking. Sorry to be so selfish, but the precious old fabric of the house is more important than the green credentials of re-using rainwater. And that is another problem with a tank as far as I can see, and ties in with your theory of not installing things which are likely to cause problems in future. Now it's empty, I should go down there (yuk,yuk,yuk-it's foul) and see if there are any obvious holes and weld them up. But I don't hold out much hope, and if I can't see any obvious leaking point it still won't give me confidence that the tank is sound and good. All of which is grist to the mill of get rid of an underground rainwater system.

:lol: I have a feeling that putting a dehumifier in half the rooms and emptying them every day into the rainwater tank would be another solution to the shortage. Whilst nothing is coming out of the taps there's a pool of water on the kitchen floor. :roll:

That is done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator

Gosh, with a 2000 year old history to it as well. Fascinating.

Thanks Aidan, measuring the depth was an interesting if rather terrifying experiment. (the well is just a hole in the floor of the scullery with a piece of wood over it, I don't fancy my chances much if I fell in: any advice for how to climb out of wells gratefully appreciated)

The well is about 1.5 metres wide and 7 metres deep. It is stone-lined, and must be Georgian.

Currently there are 5.5 metres of water in there. If I knew my daily consumption, and could do maths, I could work out many days are left in those 5.5 metres.

So, you are sceptical about the mains connection. So, too, were the mains people. They didn't give much scientific explanation, just a kind of flat out no. I have to do some proper investigation, and armed with this reading I feel better placed to.

Thank you, too, for clarifying the difference between wells and bore-holes.

I do sometimes worry about the cleanliness of my well. There are a lot of millipedes sneaking their way in under that wooden lid. And there's a soft film of dust on it. But it's never made us ill, and tastes nice. I have seen a piece of paper from 2007 testifying the water to be potable.

I've just been looking at requirements for service pipes & the suppliers generally want to inspect them before the trench is filled. They should be 750mm deep (drat, double drat, etc..) and have a copper tracing wire attached. You need to plug the ends of your pipe (see Screwfix) until it gets connected.

I really think this pipe was laid adhering to all that, I remember hearing about at great length from the previous owner who thought regulations in general absolute nonsense. He had some experience, having dug his own trench and laid his own electricity cable 20 years before: adjacent to this current water pipe.

Someone else (I think on this forum) mentioned that old milk tankers could be bought for water storage, the advantage being that they were insulated and suitable for potable water. The disadvantage being that they're usually big and not very pretty.

I'll look into this too, there are planty of places to hide such a thing.

Thanks Aidan and all!

 

[Penners]

Those bowsers seems a bit expensive to me.
I'd be looking for something more like this: http://www.ad-mart.co.uk/water_bowser_300_gal-o259837.html.

That is so reasonable.

Well, perhaps. But 300 gallons isn't much water, so I reckon your trips to Ma & Pa would be pretty regular.