Heating options

[Flyfisher]

As well as a mains gas boiler, we also have a few multifuel stoves, one of which is an 11kW boiler stove linked into the CH so the more wood we burn the less gas we use. But we're also fortunate to have plenty of free wood (if I ignore all the chainsawing and splitting involved!) and it often surprises visitors when they see how much wood we burn.

The thing to remember is that a, say, 8kW stove can only generate 8kW of heat if it burns enough wood, which means it's no good closing down the stove for a visually comforting slow burn and still expect 8kW of heat to be generated. Wood (of pretty much any type, hard or soft) will release about 4kWh of heat per kG. So if you want a stove to generate 8kW then you'll have to burn about 2Kg of wood. If you set the stove to burn it at a rate of 2kg/hour then you'll have a heat output of 8kWh. Now bear in mind that a typical gas boiler might be rated at 30kW and it means that you'd need to burn 15Kg of wood for the same amount of heat. Scale that up to the amount of time you need to generate that heat and the equivalent amount of wood become very large indeed. Suppose the CH is on for 4 hours per day, with a 30kW gas boiler that's 120kW/h of 'heat'. The same heat output from wood would mean buring through 30kg of wood in the same 4 hours.

As Scotty might say . . . 'ye canna change the laws of physics Cap'n'

 

[Flyfisher]

Sadly you may have been caught in the original Smart Meter scam. If the house currently has an old dial type Economy 7 meter alongside the standard one you should still be able to enjoy the E7 tariffs. If not then you will be obliged to get a Smart Meter before you can do so. The SM simply controls the billing rate for what you use and when you use it.

I'm afraid I just can't see the 'scam' angle about all this. It's not as if a smart meter costs money to be fitted (well, not by the householder directly), so what's the 'scam'. You're right about the the old type economy 7 meters enabling an E7 tariff but it was limited to certain fixed hours, whereas a smart meter enables all manner of low-cost periods to be distributed throughout the day. In fact, we had an economy 7 meter before the SM upgrade but with our pattern of usage it worked out more expensive than a standard tariff because of the higher day-rate when we used most of our electricity. With our current tariff, we not only get low cost overnight electricity but also low cost periods throughout the day, typically 2-4pm and 8-11pm, depending on the grid demand. All of which means my average cost per kWh is around 10p instead of the standard rate of 28p, albeit with a home battery system which allows me to 'shift' my pattern of grid usage and all enabled by the smart meter. So it doesn't seem much like a 'scam' to me.

Simple really... I hate being nagged. the First Lady doesn't do it, honest, but I'm perpetually surrounded by electronic devices telling me I'm 2mph above the limit and the service is overdue, or telling me its someones birthday or the tax man wants another contribution or an insurance premium needs to be paid in 3 months time or........

I am a grown up and perfectly capable of organising my own life thanks all the same and these electronic prompts and helpful reminders and interventions have done more than anything else to make me a grumpy old curmudgeon.

Have you ever considered just ignoring the electronic nagging?

More seriously, there's no need for a smart meter to involve any 'nagging' reminder about how much electricity you're using. The little display widget they give you with each smart meter doesn't have to be used, so it's no different to having an old meter invisibly counting your kWh consumption. Throw it away if you prefer. I know this to be true because my smart meter is in a detached garage too far from the house for the display widget to connect to it so it doesn't work in my case, so it certainly can't 'nag' me

So all it really means in practice is that you never get an estimated bill and you never see a meter reader. Where's the 'scam' in that?

As for being a 'grumpy old curmudgeon', I'd suggest there are for more serious things to be grumpy about these days than the odd electronic nag from a smart meter and in that respect I can be just as grumpy as anyone

 

[Cubist]

Dammit I've resisted long enough! I tried, vaguely manfully, not to go off on this one in @lizziecupcakes recent thread concerning heating systems but I can't bite my tongue any longer.

With the only exception of gas all the heat energy delivery systems available to end consumers is either electricity driven or supported directly or indirectly by that commodity. Here in the UK we 'enjoy' and have for some considerable time now paid considerably more than the citizens of any other country for the privilege of consuming this product. Courtesy of past governments desire to break up the monopolies of state owned power generation and distribution organisations and give the great British public the full benefits accruing from the more efficient, competitive market driven private enterprise organisations that came into being to deliver those capabilities so much more capably.

And that strategy could have worked but for the cherry they then put on top of the cake - Marginal Cost Pricing!

Today we have a plethora of so called energy companies from whom we can buy electricity but many of these do not own or operate even a scrap of the generation and distribution infrastructure. In truth these outfits are no more than Trading Houses that buy electricity supply on a wholesale basis before selling it on at their Retail Price to you and I. BUT… the wholesale price they must pay to the power generators and distribution networks behind them is based on a projection of how much ‘product’ they can sell.

In essence they are gambling that their contracted customer base will actually use the amount of electricity they bought in at the wholesale price. Sharp financial losses can occur though Under OR Over demand from their customers as heavy costs can be incurred from efforts to off-load unwanted capacity or find additional supplies from elsewhere. This is where the Marginal Cost Pricing approach cuts, and I do mean cuts, into the British consumer.

MCP is based on how much it might cost the supplier to increase his final capacity to meet an unforeseen demand. These companies then use this per unit price, rather than the contracted wholesale price per unit they actually paid, to calculate the cost of their services to consumers.

And there goes the cherry - it was never intended for you and I it seems.

Okay, thats another rant done. Ho hum.

 

[Quince]

Dammit I've resisted long enough! I tried, vaguely manfully, not to go off on this one in @lizziecupcakes recent thread concerning heating systems but I can't bite my tongue any longer.

With the only exception of gas all the heat energy delivery systems available to end consumers is either electricity driven or supported directly or indirectly by that commodity. Here in the UK we 'enjoy' and have for some considerable time now paid considerably more than the citizens of any other country for the privilege of consuming this product. Courtesy of past governments desire to break up the monopolies of state owned power generation and distribution organisations and give the great British public the full benefits accruing from the more efficient, competitive market driven private enterprise organisations that came into being to deliver those capabilities so much more capably.

And that strategy could have worked but for the cherry they then put on top of the cake - Marginal Cost Pricing!

Today we have a plethora of so called energy companies from whom we can buy electricity but many of these do not own or operate even a scrap of the generation and distribution infrastructure. In truth these outfits are no more than Trading Houses that buy electricity supply on a wholesale basis before selling it on at their Retail Price to you and I. BUT… the wholesale price they must pay to the power generators and distribution networks behind them is based on a projection of how much ‘product’ they can sell.

In essence they are gambling that their contracted customer base will actually use the amount of electricity they bought in at the wholesale price. Sharp financial losses can occur though Under OR Over demand from their customers as heavy costs can be incurred from efforts to off-load unwanted capacity or find additional supplies from elsewhere. This is where the Marginal Cost Pricing approach cuts, and I do mean cuts, into the British consumer.

MCP is based on how much it might cost the supplier to increase his final capacity to meet an unforeseen demand. These companies then use this per unit price, rather than the contracted wholesale price per unit they actually paid, to calculate the cost of their services to consumers.

And there goes the cherry - it was never intended for you and I it seems.

Okay, thats another rant done. Ho hum.

You are absolutely correct in what you say, which is exactly why I am looking for a cheaper way to heat my home. Savings never seem to get to the humble end user

 

[Cubist]

just can't see the 'scam' angle about all this

The original scam was, to my mind, that the prime and only beneficiaries of the tax take supported initiative to drive uptake of the devices would be the end consumers. Theres also the fact that the distribution companies directly benefited from significant cost reductions that were not passed back to consumers, The ongoing scam being that the generation. distribution and commodity traders involved enjoy what is in effect Real Time data with which they can monitor and control the flow of our cash into their pockets as per my other Grumpy contribution.

Have you ever considered just ignoring the electronic nagging?

Certainly, and I have to admit that the SMs I've seen so far are less intrusive than many other devices I've encountered. But... my concern about these things is not about what they do. Rather, it's about how they can quietly condition us to behave. In the words of Patrick McGoohan - I am not a number, I am free Grumpy Old Git. Or was that Terry Wogan.

 

[paulc]

Now bear in mind that a typical gas boiler might be rated at 30kW and it means that you'd need to burn 15Kg of wood for the same amount of heat. Scale that up to the amount of time you need to generate that heat and the equivalent amount of wood become very large indeed. Suppose the CH is on for 4 hours per day, with a 30kW gas boiler that's 120kW/h of 'heat'. The same heat output from wood would mean burning through 30kg of wood in the same 4 hours.

But very few houses actually need 30kW of heat. Have a heat meter attached to my 30kW boiler, and the only time I see it running at full power is when drawing hot water. For heating my modest little pile, 4-7kW is plenty even when it is -3°C outside.

 

[Lacan07]

The original scam was, to my mind, that the prime and only beneficiaries of the tax take supported initiative to drive uptake of the devices would be the end consumers. Theres also the fact that the distribution companies directly benefited from significant cost reductions that were not passed back to consumers, The ongoing scam being that the generation. distribution and commodity traders involved enjoy what is in effect Real Time data with which they can monitor and control the flow of our cash into their pockets as per my other Grumpy contribution.


Certainly, and I have to admit that the SMs I've seen so far are less intrusive than many other devices I've encountered. But... my concern about these things is not about what they do. Rather, it's about how they can quietly condition us to behave. In the words of Patrick McGoohan - I am not a number, I am free Grumpy Old Git. Or was that Terry Wogan.

What grinds my gears is the abuse of the 'direct debit' scam. Firstly you have to pay more for your energy if you wish to opt out of DD, but if you opt in to take advantage of the cheaper rates the first sign of winter and your account going into the red will trigger an unnecessary and arbitrary increase in your monthly payments. This is an absolute scam that wilfully ignores the concept of 'average' which set your monthly rate in the first place. The aim of the game is to accrue as much 'credit' in your account as possible which likely gets invested elsewhere, unless you ask for it back.

 

[a twig]

Here we have a similar 8kw and a larger 14kw wood-burners which are used for almost all of our heating needs - the only exception being a small fan heater for occasional/emeregency use. The larger of the two also drives our wet CH system and as such shoulders most of the heating burden of the house which is a four bedroom thatched oak timber frame cottage and attached barn conversion. Your 12kw stove should be capable of a very similar performance and perhaps with no modifications. Also, it may, if its a relatively modern product, still be capable of having a hot water jacket installed which can be used to drive a wet ch system. Or, as another option you might consider replacing the extant stove with a more modern product that includes a ch water jacket. Your use practices will play a large part in how efficiently the wood-burners work for you and long, and sometimes bitterly won, experience is needed to get the best from them - if you're willing to share those practices here there are a few members here who may be able to offer some advice.

Sadly you may have been caught in the original Smart Meter scam. If the house currently has an old dial type Economy 7 meter alongside the standard one you should still be able to enjoy the E7 tariffs. If not then you will be obliged to get a Smart Meter before you can do so. The SM simply controls the billing rate for what you use and when you use it. As @Flyfisher has just explained for my benefit the SM connects to Cell Phone and Radio networks for its WAN connections - there is nothing internal to your home needed for it to do this.

E7 meters will no longer work after June 30, suppliers have been replacing these with smart meters for the last year or so

 

[a twig]

If you can’t get a smart meter, look into “power wall” systems to store excess generated energy in your property rather than using it to get money back from your provider.

The aim in your scenario would be generating enough of your own power to be essentially off grid and only using metered power to top up during adverse weather conditions

 

[Rosemouse]

I've read about infra-red heaters and my understanding is that they (basically) heat the person rather than the room, so their 'efficiency' and lower running costs come from the fact that the occupants feel warm without having to heat the entire room.

Although I've no direct experience of this sort of heating it does make sense to me because we struggle to get our rooms up to a 'normal' temperature (20-21c ?) and they are typically around 17c, or a bit colder when the outside temperatures are low (don't we just love draughty period properties!). But, we also have multifuel stoves and when lit with the doors open, the radiant heat makes us feel very comfortable even if the air temperature in the room is around 17c. There's also something quite comforting about coming in from the cold and warming up in front of a hot fire rather than just being in a 21c room, so perhaps it's more psychological than physical, I don't know. But in the words of the song, 'if it feels good, do it' !

Yes they heat objects rather than air, which is where the savings comes from, but they are capable of getting a smaller room to a good warmth. But I agree there is nothing like radiant heat, my infrared radiators are standins for my soon-to-arrive wood stove and will then be moved to a part of the house where a stove cannot be installed. But my friends who put me onto them heated their whole Welsh cottage with infrared because they couldn't install any other sort of heating except electric and they said it was great.

 

[Cubist]

What grinds my gears is the abuse of the 'direct debit' scam. Firstly you have to pay more for your energy if you wish to opt out of DD, but if you opt in to take advantage of the cheaper rates the first sign of winter and your account going into the red will trigger an unnecessary and arbitrary increase in your monthly payments. This is an absolute scam that wilfully ignores the concept of 'average' which set your monthly rate in the first place. The aim of the game is to accrue as much 'credit' in your account as possible which likely gets invested elsewhere, unless you ask for it back.

And that's the Insult they Add to the Injury - first they price the product on the basis of what they 'might' have to pay for some phantom extra capacity, then they get us all to pay for it 'in advance' of our using it. Oh, whilst also accumulating 'credit balances' for their use from our funds while doing so!

 

[Flyfisher]

But very few houses actually need 30kW of heat. Have a heat meter attached to my 30kW boiler, and the only time I see it running at full power is when drawing hot water. For heating my modest little pile, 4-7kW is plenty even when it is -3°C outside.

Well you need that 30kW capacity (or thereabouts) for properly hot water, but I take your point, which is why it's the kWh figure that's important. Even an average 5kW output for 6 hours per day is the equivalent of 7.5kg of wood.

 

[Flyfisher]

What grinds my gears is the abuse of the 'direct debit' scam. Firstly you have to pay more for your energy if you wish to opt out of DD, but if you opt in to take advantage of the cheaper rates the first sign of winter and your account going into the red will trigger an unnecessary and arbitrary increase in your monthly payments. This is an absolute scam that wilfully ignores the concept of 'average' which set your monthly rate in the first place. The aim of the game is to accrue as much 'credit' in your account as possible which likely gets invested elsewhere, unless you ask for it back.

I know what you mean but it's not strictly true and depends on how actively you want to manage things with your energy provider. I'm with Octopus and I can set my own DD amount online, so I simply adjust it when necessary to keep track with my actual usage throughout the year. In that respect it's much the same as fully paying the old quarterly bills.

When I first had solar PV installed and my summer electricity bills were negative, I ran up about £700 of credit but when I requested a refund they dragged their heels (Grr!) so I simply set my monthly DD amount to £1 and recovered the credit that way. Nowadays, I get the monthly bill at the beginning of the month (accurate, of course, because of the smart meter ) and have a couple of weeks to adjust my DD payment before it is paid on the 20th of the month. The process is entirely online and takes a couple of minutes. I can even ensure that my balance is always slightly in the red, so they're certainly not getting any 'advance' credit from me.

It's not perfect by any means but it is possible to 'game the system' with a little effort.

 

[paulc]

Well you need that 30kW capacity (or thereabouts) for properly hot water,

If you are heating water on demand, then yes, a 30kW boiler may be required. With a hot water tank, plenty of people manage with a 3kW immersion heater and others get by with 12kW or smaller boilers. Just takes a little longer to heat a tank from cold.

 

[Flyfisher]

True. I've often wondered about the relative efficiencies (or should I say cost-effectiveness) of high-powered on-demand water heaters compared with a lower-powered immersion heater in a large hot water tank, where there is bound to be some heat lost from the tank, depending on the insulation effectiveness. Though if the heat is 'lost' into the house then perhaps it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things?

 

[Zebra]

Simple really... I hate being nagged....... I'm perpetually surrounded by electronic devices telling me......

I am a grown up and perfectly capable of organising my own life thanks all the same....

Same! I'm a smart meter resistor! I am already frugal with my energy use, am perfectly aware that putting the kettle on will result in x amount of electricity usage and don't need a display to tell me. What am I supposed to do, not have a cup of tea? Never put the washing machine on?
Plus it's just more electronic stuff to be thrown in landfill eventually. I read my own meter and like it that way.

 

[Lacan07]

I know what you mean but it's not strictly true and depends on how actively you want to manage things with your energy provider. I'm with Octopus and I can set my own DD amount online, so I simply adjust it when necessary to keep track with my actual usage throughout the year. In that respect it's much the same as fully paying the old quarterly bills.

When I first had solar PV installed and my summer electricity bills were negative, I ran up about £700 of credit but when I requested a refund they dragged their heels (Grr!) so I simply set my monthly DD amount to £1 and recovered the credit that way. Nowadays, I get the monthly bill at the beginning of the month (accurate, of course, because of the smart meter ) and have a couple of weeks to adjust my DD payment before it is paid on the 20th of the month. The process is entirely online and takes a couple of minutes. I can even ensure that my balance is always slightly in the red, so they're certainly not getting any 'advance' credit from me.

It's not perfect by any means but it is possible to 'game the system' with a little effort.

Thanks for this Flyfisher, I've been out the loop for ages since I started my renovation and just pay my (meagre) bills quarterly (never on time). I need to get back in the fold now my gas is on again so I'll certainly take a look at Octopus, especially if as you say they will allow me to adjust my monthly payments without any interference.

My experiences of DD were prior to owning my current house. I'd submit my previous years usage to get a new quote (based on their best rate and standing charges, etc) which obviously sets the monthly payment. Now unless you have any reason to believe your consumption for the coming year will be drastically different to last year there's absolutely no reason to adjust the monthly rate agreed upon. So bumping it up as soon as the heating goes on and the account goes into the red is an absolute farce. Ive had many telephone calls arguing with them until Im blue in the face..."but Mr Kristeva your usage has massively increased?"....Yes, its ****** January, what did you think was going to happen? And what do you think happens in the summer? i'm amazed how few people can grasp the concept of 'average'.

 

[Cubist]

Plus it's just more electronic stuff to be thrown in landfill eventually

Whoops, thanks Zebra, I'd forgotten the always attendant massive waste of materials, and the oftentimes perfectly viable technology its used to produce, that ends up in landfill, or worse still, some heap in a third world nation being picked over and burned to extract the metals by children trying to make a crust!

Beside me in my study is a collection of those cheap Ikea file boxes all of which are stuffed with all manner of old cables, power supplies for now long gone laptops, phones and the like all of which were tucked away with the thought 'That could be useful in the future'. Among that junk, to my certain knowledge, reside five..... FIVE Routers and TWO of those from the same perishing Broadband provider! True, its possible to 'daisy chain' these, or at least some of them, to extend WiFi coverage in my home but there are some natural limits to where I would want to find such services in this place. Clearly I should have chucked this redundant kit out the last time I opened those boxes but.... my conscience gets the better of me and back they go for some future and never to be encountered eventuality. I despair, not because I don't have the heart to bin the stuff, but because it is so unnecessary and could so easily be replaced with equally simple and inexpensive kit that does not have to be thrown away when we switch to another provider..... Its exasperating and just makes my blood boil!

"Alexa - Where's me meds?"

OK, OK, I'm done now honest.

Now what do you want Siri?

Yes, I know we're out of cheese, No, I don't want a cuppa, Thank you for telling me the laundries done - shame you can't iron it and put it away and No! I do not need another copy of 1984.

 

[Flyfisher]

Beside me in my study is a collection of those cheap Ikea file boxes all of which are stuffed with all manner of old cables, power supplies for now long gone laptops, phones and the like all of which were tucked away with the thought 'That could be useful in the future'. Among that junk, to my certain knowledge, reside five..... FIVE Routers and TWO of those from the same perishing Broadband provider! True, its possible to 'daisy chain' these, or at least some of them, to extend WiFi coverage in my home but there are some natural limits to where I would want to find such services in this place. Clearly I should have chucked this redundant kit out the last time I opened those boxes but.... my conscience gets the better of me and back they go for some future and never to be encountered eventuality. I despair, not because I don't have the heart to bin the stuff, but because it is so unnecessary and could so easily be replaced with equally simple and inexpensive kit that does not have to be thrown away when we switch to another provider..... Its exasperating and just makes my blood boil!

Yes, it's certainly a dilemma. I have a similar collection of old electronic stuff that has been superseded by something better/faster/cheaper. I must have 3 or 4 old PCs in the attic and, like you, a number of old routers. But let's be honest, it's our choices that are the real problem. We may decide we don't want or need the very latest tech but how many of us yearn for the 'good old days' of 14,400 kilobit (yes, KILO, not MEGA) dial-up modems for our internet access? Or PCs with hard drives that can't even store ONE high resolution photo from a digital camera? Or countless other examples?

We may all live in period properties many 100s of years old but none of us really wish to live as the original owners did and it's a simple fact of modern life that every advance in technology creates a trail of redundant technology in its wake.

 

[TudorCottage]

Electric Underfloor Heating.Very,very expensive to run!!

We have 4 zones, kitchen, living room, dining room and utility/bathroom.
During the recent cold spell we had the kitchen and living room zones turned on 24/7, set to 25’ during the day and 15’ at night. The other zones are never turned on and we only use it at all, in really cold weather.

My figures are not entirely accurate because we are on a nighttime tariff and our not so smart meter doesn’t work out the discounted rate, that’s done at head office

But for that week our electricity cost was approximately between £155 and £165!!
Admittedly I charge an EV daily, but the majority of that cost was down to the floor.

It’s so frustrating, because without a shadow of a doubt it’s the most efficient in terms of keeping the cottage warm. We also have a large gas radiator and electric heater downstairs, but they can’t get the place warm like the UFH can in really cold weather. Despite that week being the coldest of the winter, the cottage felt the warmest it had all winter. It really is that good. Just a shame the UK has one of the highest costs for electricity in the world.

It was already fitted here when we bought the place, but if I was starting from scratch I don’t think it would be my 1st option.