Grade II listed. Thinking of taking the plunge

[Pford75]

I also seem to remember a survey by primlocation.com indicating that listed buildings acheive on average 15-20% more than non-listed ones..........food for thought

 

[Penners]

is de-listing a possiblity? I want to preserve the building but I don't want someone from the council bossing me around and making me wait for stuff. Is there any advantage to the listing at all? It sounds like it represents nothing but pain to the householder who is just trying to do their bit for conservation and have a nice home. And, in my area, it looks like it is probably a block to selling as well.

Your chances of de-listing are extremely remote - I'm glad to say.

If you want to carry out like-for-like repair work on a listed building, you have every right to do it without having to apply for consent. And (unless you're Grade 1) you don't need to worry about things like hanging pictures, installing burglar alarms* (unless fabric destruction will be involved) and the like. However, your fencing plan would probably need consent, as it will affect the view of the listed building from a public highway.

If you want to make alterations to a listed building, then you do have to submit an application for Listed Building Consent (which is free). And if - as you say - you want to do your bit for conservation, then I presume that you will not be applying to do anything that will constitute destruction of original fabric or alter the character of the building. In which case you shouldn't have too much trouble. However, I do recommend that you talk over your proposals with your Conservation Officer before you make an application. That way you will have a much better idea of whether your proposals will be acceptable - and you'll probably get some useful advice into the bargain.

If you treat your CO as "someone from the council bossing you about" then you're likely to have problems. But ask, discuss, seek advice, and you'll find them much more helpful.

As regards insurance, I've normally found that listed buildings (well - the four that I've owned, anyway) cost very little more to insure than a modern house, provided they are of conventional construction (eg: bricks-and-mortar, slate or tile roof, etc.).

* I have a wireless burglar alarm - no cabling needed at all!

 

[Flyfisher]

However, your fencing plan would probably need consent, as it will affect the view of the listed building from a public highway.

That's a good point, the listing will almost certainly extend throughout the curtilage of the propery and can therefore cover walls and outbuildings etc.

 

[Nemesis]

There are limits to like for like otherwise you could rebuild the whole place... wise to discuss first really with the CO.

 

[Kittycat]

I'm really appreciating all your comments and taking them on board. I'm not as deeply committed to the whole conservation principle as some people here but I'm not a TOTAL philistine. I don't want a TV aerial or satellite or UPVC windows, for instance. I just want to clean up a few small grotty bits inside which offer no obvious benefit and have good security because I've always had a fear of intruders since I was a child. I also want to be sure I can handle the situation if something suddenly falls down.

I've noticed some modernisations to the exterior of the property that seem out of keeping. I'd give details but possibly the owner is lurking here. I will tell you later though - whether I buy or not. But the CO didn't seem to give a damn about talking about the building on the phone, didn't seem to know about the building and stated that they wouldn't have time to talk about anything except telling me the regulations. Maybe I need to go and talk in person - then it will be harder for them to avoid me.

On the other hand, maybe I should be glad they're not interested. Maybe they won't be breathing down my neck because they don't care! But that might change. So I have to find out what work has been done without consent and look into the sutuation.

 

[Moo]

Kitty - people taking on an old building for the first time really do need the assistance of the regulations.
Without it, and with the best will in the world, they may well do things to the house that can, in the longer term, actually damage it.
And once they've learned a bit more (often through this forum), and realise their mistake(s), they will find it very difficult (either very messy, or very expensive, or both) to unpick. I know - I've done it.

New houses are not built in the same way, or of the same materials, as old houses and they therefore have to be treated differently. None of it is rocket science, but it can be a fairly steep learning curve (and that's why several people have expressed a certain amount of concern about the fact that the house has been 'modernised').

If your overworked CO hasn't the time to talk you through everything, you have a squadron of kind, concerned and knowledgeable people here on PPUK to answer all your questions (and even to suggest some questions you won't have thought of).

 

[Penners]

the CO didn't seem to give a damn about talking about the building on the phone, didn't seem to know about the building and stated that they wouldn't have time to talk about anything except telling me the regulations. Maybe I need to go and talk in person - then it will be harder for them to avoid me.

On the other hand, maybe I should be glad they're not interested. Maybe they won't be breathing down my neck because they don't care!

CO's are invariably overworked, and it's therefore entirely possible that they wouldn't have time to talk to someone who is only in the process of buying a listed building.

However, after you've bought it, then your plan to go and see them is certainly the best way to proceed. Phone for an appointment, and try to have at least some rough sketches of any proposals you might have, to help the discussions.

But don't imagine that they won't care what you do. And even if you altered the building without their knowledge, you'd probably run into a tricky situation if/when you came to sell.

 

[DaveBrigg]

Our CO was also difficult to speak to on the phone, but always replied to emails. There's much talk of regulations, but I have to confess to never having seen them written down in black and white. Is there a definitive guide to what can and can't be done, or is it down to local approval?

 

[Jocelyn]

Goodness Me! Of course you can speak directly with a Conservation Officer, and of course they will arrange to come to your property and chat about your plans. If he/she not available at the minute you phone, they will call you back. Don't be pushed aside by the switch board and office staff. If you have specific issues the only person to give you proper advice is the CO, your Architect or your Surveyor.

 

[Penners]

Is there a definitive guide to what can and can't be done, or is it down to local approval?

It's in the nature of listed buildings (every one is unique) that a set of definitive regulations just can't be written down. Every case has to be individually assessed by the CO, based on the features and details of the building in question.

For example, you might have a fairly ordinary house that has been listed Grade II because it has some unusual and important windows. In such a case, a CO might be relaxed about the removal of a 20th century fireplace, but be absolutely intransigent about any changes to the windows. Despite this, bear in mind that - if a building is listed - the whole lot is listed, not just parts. In fact, everything within the curtilege of the plot is affected.

Of course, the higher grade the listing, the more defensive of the building the CO will be.

In general, the rule is that no alterations will be permitted to a listed building if they destroy historic fabric or change the character of the building. But it is up to the CO to interpret what will or won't infringe those principles.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si1990/Uksi_19901519_en_1.htm

 

[Kittycat]

Are CO's architects? Or Surveyors? Or just admin staff who've been on a course or two?

Will they let me alter the building if I offer to sleep with them? (Only joking, of couse. I would never do this

 

[Kittycat]

Just thought I'd say thanks to Moo for kind words and to Penners for excellent link - just what I needed.

 

[Penners]

Are CO's architects? Or Surveyors? Or just admin staff who've been on a course or two?

Kittycat - there's only one way you could persuade me to answer that question..... :wink:

 

[NT]

You dont mind the species gap Penners?


NT

 

[Jane Smith]

He's used to it. Has lived with it all these years....

 

[skier-hughes]

He's used to it. Has lived with it all these years....

That's no way to speak of the lovely Mrs Penners, shame on you Jane :shock:

Graham

 

[alison]

Hello Kittycat -

I am in a very similar position to you, about to take the plunge on a listed 17c cottage, and I got some excellent advice here recently when I asked what to do if the mortgage company wants some bog-standard approach to e.g. damp, and a conservation surveyor advises a different course of action for the benefit of the building (thanks again lads and lasses for the help).

Anyway, I also got in touch with the local Conservation Officer, who very kindly but firmly advised me that until I had definitely bought the house, they could not give me any specific advice, otherwise they'd have the world and his wife leading them out on wild-goose chases. He then tipped me the wink for a specialist conservation surveyor that he had found good to work with in the past (they're of course not supposed to do this, but I made it clear that I understood that, and part of the 'befriending' idea is that you have access to a sympathetic human being as well as a free mediator between you and the regulations). Finally, he said, give us a call as soon as you've bought it and we'll come round and have a look at it for you no problem.

This cottage is in a different area to where I currently live, an area which clearly has the benefit of a 'Conservation team' with two architects in it. Where I currently live is one of the most historic market towns in the country, but it has a tiny local council which can barely afford one part-time conservation officer (I don't think about it too deeply, otherwise the lack of protection and support for the hundreds of listed buildings around here have would probably have me in tears. Also, there used to be no conservation officer at all...). This two-and-a-half-day-a-week officer is not an architect, but is clearly an experienced planner with specialist training in historic building conservation, who works their socks off and tries very hard to listen to all parties regarding LBC applications (and do be aware that if you apply for something visually or historically detrimental to your property you may well have the local amenity society down on you as well, and with a good right).

I guess what I'm trying to say is it's probably an idea to find out about the nature of your local conservation Department and try to assist them rather than just milking them as a freebie advisory service that saves you opening your wallet for professionals (I'm not saying that's your attitude, just that it's the extreme view that some people could take - I've paid my council tax so I'm entitled to help myself to as much as I want of anything the council offers).

Personally, I think the policy of the department I spoke to, not to advise on potential purchases, was entirely reasonable. I also think we're bloody lucky to have this system and we have a responsibility to care for it as well as for the buildings!

Good luck with whatever decision you make.

 

[Penners]

That's no way to speak of the lovely Mrs Penners, shame on you Jane.

Well, I'm glad to see that at least there's one gentleman on this forum. Clearly Jane isn't.

Er... that didn't quite work, did it?

 

[Jane Smith]

Penners, no slight was intended on the amazing Mrs P who is, as we are all aware, truly saintlike in her determination to make the best of her difficult situation.

 

[Penners]

She is indeed a wonderful woman, Jane. And with impeccable taste in men.