Grade II listed. Thinking of taking the plunge

[Kittycat]

Hi there

I'd be so very grateful for your advice.

I'm verging on buying a Grade II listed property. It's beautiful but I'm terrified. My partner is thrilled to bits. We have no DIY skills (although I've read quite a lot about building). The place is entirely modernised. My worries are:

1. Will the insurance be much more than on a standard 30's semi same size/same area?

2. How can I find out if the owners have done unauthorised works that the council will make us fix?

3. Is there any stuff you can do without permission - or do you have to go to the council planner when you want to hang a picture on the wall?

Does the council planner charge you for every time you ask permission?

4. Modern kitchens and bathrooms - can you assume that you can change these if you leave all plumbing as already improved? What about modern tiles? Do they now form part of the history of the building?

5. I'm really concerned about security - can't imagine living without a burglar alarm. Are there any alarms they let you have?

6. Property is unfenced at the front and people can easily walk all round house and garden. I want more fencing and security. I.e. cameras, security lights, alarm. What do you suppose I can have? What can I do about the sash windows - Can I fit toughened glass or those security gates that pull across indoors?
(Hope I don't sound paranoid - it's just that I think a beautiful house may well draw some unwanted attention and no-one wants to be burgled).

Do you have to be a real enthusiast for all this as I'm more interested in just living in a beautiful house and taking care of it than in becoming a semi-pro building renovator.

Kit

 

[Jocelyn]

Everybody will give help and advice on your questions.

First of all don't be put off. If you can afford the asking price and have had a professional survey to help assess any expenditure that might be required to keep the building in good order, and you are comfortable with ongoing upkeep budget , then give the property a go.

There should not be a problem with security alarms. Most accredited, reputable companies are very aware of listed building status. I have had alarms on all my properties with no problems.

I shall leave the other questions you have posed to those who are very up to date with all the if's and buts.

Build up good relationships with your conservation officer, they will answer all your questions, and I am sure the pre search survey and conveyancing will put your mind at rest.


Good Luck

 

[DaveBrigg]

Hi
To answer some of your queries...
Our grade II house costs slightly more to insure than where we used to live, althougfh it is bigger. We got a few quotes before we bought.

We had the place rewired, reroofed, plastered, kitchen fitted and central heating put in without needing Listed Building Consent. We did speak to the Conservation Officer first though, and followed his guidance. The philosophy seemed to be that if the house was unliveable in, it would end up demolished. The kitchen and bathroom could be refitted because they were chipboard and plastic, and we were told that cupboards, sinks etc were not structural i.e. they could easily be removed again without causing damage to the building. We toyed with the idea of re-installing a chimney which had been capped below the roof, but this would have required Consent since it altered the appearance. We also have an alarm installed.
As for the sash windows and fencing, they could be more problematic, since they do affect the appearance or structure of the property. The best bet is to speak to your conservation officer before buying - ours was great, and 'free' (as a council tax payer, you have already paid for this service). Using the search facility on this forum is a great way to learn too. Have fun.

 

[middi]

Whare is you sense of adventure Kittycat.

Most of the questions asked on this site by people embarking on "period living" is usually:-, " how much for a new roof, my chimney is falling down, the place is derelict, there is no services, there is water coming through the walls, there is no walls, etc..., etc....,you are lucky that you can afford a listed property that appear to have none of these problems.

Most of the question you have asked are just as important.

You could read the leaflets available at every town council planning DPT regarding the do,s and dont,s on listed properties, it is a helpfull basic guide to get you started and on the right path.

Certainly before you go ahead with any purchase find out from the vendors solicitors that no unauthorised work has been done and if you are concerned about the quality of any work already done have your own survey.

Security is a personal choise as to how much you need over and above the average.

As to be able to hang pictures on the walls without consent, you find that the listed constraints are not so demanding regarding decorations, higiene and other personal preferences within the building .Nevertheless, there is always exeptions and if you are not sure as to how to proceed you ask you Conservation Officer, They are there to help and not bite you hand off.

Good luck

 

[Moo]

"What can I do about the sash windows - Can I fit toughened glass or those security gates that pull across indoors? "

I'm sure you can, but I don't think you should. For a start, it would be almost a hanging offence to replace lovely wobbly historic glass; and installing security gates would be tantamount to putting a notice over the door saying "This house is well worth burgling, because it contains lots of valuable things."

If you really want security, what about shutters? Have you looked to see whether there are (or were) any? Your Conservation Officer may well be delighted to do some detective work with you.

 

[SGray]

Hi Kittycat
You are right to be asking questions before you buy. You don't say how old the house is or what sort of building it is.
Here is our experience - we bought a cottage last year the oldest part of which was built in 1807. It has been recently modernised and we mistakenly thought that new kitchen units etc and internal decoration would be as much as we needed to do. We bought very quickly (for a number of reasons), relied on a survey from 3 years ago that the then current owners had had done (if the house is 200 years old then not much is going to have changed in 3 was my reasoning! Yes, I know - it sounds very stupid now) and I knew nothing about the construction of or likely problems with old buildings.
We started decorating the lounge last September thinking we could get the room done with a week off work, and have found one "problem" after another since then. The lounge is still not decorated but our garden looks like a building site as we have been digging a soak away, re-routing drainpipes, lowering ground levels, undoing garden landscaping......
We thought we would unblock the fire place and re instate a real fire; I initially thought we would spend about £600 - £700 on this but in total it will cost us over £2000.
I could go on but I won't bore you anymore.
I suppose the point I am trying to make is that you should take your time, find out as much as you can (this site is very good), ask lots of questions. Also be very clear about what you would want to do with the house and be aware that altering internal decoration any more that a simple coat of paint is likely to uncover things not initially apparent to you and that as you start a project you may find that you are changing your plans as you go along. Modern building materials and methods are not always the best way of doing things and finding skilled tradesmen who are sensative to the buildings needs is proving difficult for us. If you are not DIY minded, then this is also something to bear in mind.
Find a surveyor who is experienced and qualified with old buildings. We have since had a surveyor around and I found it so helpful being able to watch him and ask questions as he went around.
Of course, solving any "problems" that the building may present you with can be satisfying and interesting in ways that you will never get with a modern house - I have certainly been on a steep learning curve recently.

 

[ajbaker]

Welcome to the 'club', and you have certainly found the right online forum to ask all of your questions. I've always been impressed by the prompt, friendly and helpful nature of the people on this forum.

I was in an identical situation to you 2 years ago. Had the option of buying a listed property as my first home. I had absolutely no DIY skills or knowledge but fell in love with the property. A lot has changed since, and I occasionally get frustrated living in a permanent, self-inflicted building site, but I do not regret the decision I made.

To answer your questions.

1. My insurance is through Abbey, and previously was Norwich Union. Neither of them checked if the property was listed, so every year when it comes to renewal I ensure they add a note to my file stating the property is listed, and that they are aware of that. As a result the insurance is no more than a normal property. I have made one claim (ceiling damage to water leak) and Norwich Union had absolutely no problem paying for like-for-like replacement of lath and plaster ceiling and lime plaster walls.

2. This is where pre-purchase research is essential. Ask the owners what they have done. Ask the conservation officer if he is aware of any issues that he is not happy with. Find out how long the current owners have been there, and how much they paid originally - if its a short time, and the asking price has increased significantly I would be concerned they have done a cheap (modern) rennovation in order to make substantial profits. Finally, most council web sites enable you to search for listed consent applications - see if any have been made in the last few years.
If the current owners sound knowledgeable (and do check back here!) about historic fabrics, know the conservation officer, and can detail what they done and why, I would feel more comfortable. If they are clueless about these issues then I would be worried - you cannot own and care about a listed building without learning these things. Also if they have been there for many years, and no listed consent apps have been made, find out why. This would be strange in my eyes.

3. What you can and cannot do without permission will vary from property to property. You never quite know when you will be affecting the historic fabric. The Conservation officer should be fairly helpful. When I first moved I was asking question about being allowed to install electricity points etc. I soon learned from him what would and would not be acceptable for this property.

Listed Consent Applications are free. However depending on what you are doing you may still need planning permission and/or building reg checks. These are priced as per non-listed houses and will only apply for the same reasons. Also worth bearing in mind some work can be zero VAT rated which is a bonus. This only applies to real additions or improvements to the property. For example repairs and minor alteration are rated with normal VAT. Because my house had no heating I was able to zero rate it, but adding a boiler to an existing system would not be.

4. This is a tough one. The listed status applies to everything in and outside of the property, including modern fittings. Therefore it is always best to check with your conservation officer. However assuming no damage will be caused to anything of real historic value, you can be fairly sure they will be happy for your plans. Bare in mind tiling on original floors and walls can damage the historic fabric (for example) because you'll never get them off again tidily. Its not always obvious what you are doing can be damaging.

The other side of this is modern fittings that are causing damage to the property already. For example tiles preventing a wall from breathing and causing a damp problem. Listed consent would be required to remove these, but you can be fairly sure you will get it because by doing so you are protecting the property.

5. Without wanting to be rude, can I ask if you are normally very security conscious, and perhaps a little more than necessary? Adding an alarm should not be a problem so long as you are not having to damage anything for its installation (holes drilled for cables may or may not fall into this category). Also, is the house in a conservation area? This is seperate from the listed status, and may bar you from having an external alarm fitted.

6. See 5. A Conservation area will have more affect here than a listed status. The house is listed for the benefit of society, not the price of the house or your particular interests. Sorry to sound harsh. My advice would be to get a feel of the property and its area before you start grand plans for fences, cameras etc. You may find they are not necessary after all. Alternatively you may find so much damage is caused by vandals that security is essential - and again, the conservation office would look favorably on the application because the security would be beneficial to the property. My advice would be not to worry about this until it happens.

Regarding security glass.... I knew nothing of DIY or building materials when I moved in. Now however I love and respect the way light is scattered by old glass, and could never have double glazing, modern glazing or security glass for this reason. It DOES make a real difference. I am sure in time you will come to appreciate this too. Please don't worry too much, I simply cannot imagine a listed house being in a really rough area.

The enthusiasm you apply to the property is up to you. When I moved in I had no desire to make money on the property (nor lose!). Neither did I have any desire to learn much of the property itself. Don't get me wrong though, I knew it was listed, and respected that. Over time however I gained a real appreciation for the house, and its historic features and values.

Over the two years I taught myself how to plumb - because I was disgusted by how much plumbers charged for simple jobs. I eventually did all of the plumbing for central heating (didn't touch the gas though).

I have been on a lime plastering course and have just completed my first room. The materials are almost as cheap as modern stuff, its just the labour for a specialist 'skill' that bumps the price up. I wanted to avoid this.

Now, every time I need to do something on the property I will first ensure it will benefit the house, and research the issues. I can then decide if I am able to do it myself, or whether it would be cost-effective to have done professionally. Whether you decide to DIY or hire a professional, it is ESSENTIAL to do the research first to be an informed buyer. A lot of builders and conservation specialists I have learned (at my expense) actually know very little and are simply after your money. That is why I say no one can live in a listed building and care for it without learning.

Ok essay over. I hope I have not, for one second, put you off buying the house. It is beautiful, and it will be a joy to live in; modern houses just do not compare. In my experience however it will also change your life and your outlook. For the better I would argue. It will be hard work, and it will be expensive. It has been for me. It has however been worth it in terms of what I have learned, and the beauty of the house.

Everything I say is completely subjective. I know some will disagree, and I respect them for that. I am sure everyone will agree however (on these forums at least) living in a period property is a beautiful experience.

Welcome to the club!

 

[ajbaker]

Oh, and when you move, please do post some pictures

 

[ajbaker]

Oh, and... befriending, respecting and questioning your conservation officer is probably the most useful piece of advice I can give.

Having them on side is really important. Working with them can be be difficult, especially if you disagree (don't forget, sometimes they are right!)

 

[Kittycat]

Thank you very much to everyone who replied to my query. You were all most informative and kind.

ajbaker - I just spoke to the planning office. They made a great effort to ring me back but made it clear that they didn't give any advice to anyone over the phone other than to inform of the regulations and stress that everything had to be applied for and there was an 8-week turnaround for every single enquiry. I think I hate them already. How on earth do you befriend them? How do you ever get things done? The woman seemed to think that only my professional advisors should be contacting them and not me.

 

[Flyfisher]

I suppose they are all different but I've found our CO most helpful and willing to come out to visit and offer advice about survey reports even before any planning requests were submitted.

Maybe it all depends on how busy they are, but they are in the business of helping to preserve listed buildings, so they should be on your side - assuming that's what you want as well!

 

[Nemesis]

Maybe it depends on how you approach a CO, if indeed it was the CO and not someone else in planning you spoke to.

If you call to see how much you can alter the building then no, they aren't going to be too friendly really. They do get very fed up...

 

[middi]

I agree with Nemesis, they may have been bamboozled with an array of questions and possible alterations hence the feedback.

I do not think that you are expected to splash money on expert advise if you just want to ask basic questions such as rejuvenating your bathroom , replacing a couple of bricks or a section of gutter.

In all cases that I know of, the CO's are very friendly and pass their comments followed by a site visit if necessary.

 

[Nemesis]

'The place is entirely modernised' is rather a worry!

I hope not.

However, it may be there has been already extensive work carried out with LBC in the recent past, and possibly the CO may feel enough is enough - otherwise the cumulative effect may rob the building of its historic interest.

Then the next owner will be applying to have it de-listed, as it's been altered so much...

 

[Kittycat]

By "entirely modernised" I mean it has bathrooms and a kitchen that look modern with mod cons in and services. There are plenty of old sections and fabric of the building. It looks in good order but I suspect that more might possibly have been modernised than allowed. I would just want to change bathroom and kitchen fittings and flooring. Admitedly I would rather it hadn't been listed, then I would have just bought it and got on with it. But my run-in with the council today has freaked me out. If a big hole appears in the roof, do you have to get written permission to mend it? YOu can't wait 8 weeks and there might be trouble getting conservation standard products to site in a matter of days so what do you do? I can't say I've ever found it easy to get an ordinary tradesman in for my present house.

 

[Kittycat]

Nemesis

I realise it's not what you want to hear but is de-listing a possiblity? I want to preserve the building but I don't want someone from the council bossing me around and making me wait for stuff. Is there any advantage to the listing at all? It sounds like it represents nothing but pain to the householder who is just trying to do their bit for conservation and have a nice home. And, in my area, it looks like it is probably a block to selling as well.

 

[Moo]

I'm sure others on the forum will explain the principles of listing in more cogent detail, but I really do think, Kitty, that you'd be better off looking for an unlisted house.
Certainly some of the requirements or constraints imposed by conservation departments can seem irritating (and/or expensive), but their concern is for the building and its well-being in the future. They have to be a bit like dogs' homes or adoption agencies who must put the interests of the dog or child first, irrespective of the feelings of the would-be adopters.

 

[Flyfisher]

Kittycat, my understanding is that you don't need to wait for LBC to make emergency repairs. Just inform the CO of what you're going to do and why. I've read that they still have the authority to stop the work, but if they did that they would be taking on the liability of any further damage that might occur as a result, so in practice such refusal is very unlikely to happen.

I also understand that no LBC is needed for repairs providing they are genuinely like-for-like. But if it was me, I'd still write and tell the CO what I was doing and why, just to cover myself in case of a mistake.

If the property in question really has been 'extensively modernised' then I would be careful to check that all the necessary LBCs were obtained because I understand that it's the current owner that's responsible for any unauthorised work even if it was a previous owner that did the deed. Presumably it's part of the solicitor's job when conveying the property to establish these things.

 

[Nemesis]

Delisting isn't really a possibilty - not without a great deal of hassle which I don't think you would want to get into. And if the building really has been altered so much it has lost significance, then the owner could have action taken to at least put some of the missing features back.

I agree with Moo - if you aren't really prepared to abide by the restrictions, don't buy it. You wouldn't be 'doing your bit for conservation' if you aren't prepared to go along with the restrictions. There will eventually be a buyer, who will love it for what it is, not for what they wish it to be.

Yes, there is some advantage to the listing - it's there to protect a historically and / or architecturally significant part of the nation's heritage from being destroyed, and to preserve it for the future. Without it, I'm afraid we would probably have little left of merit.

 

[middi]

If a hole appears in your peg tiles,welsh slates, stone slates or zinc roof , your initial problem is to find a tradesman that will repair it as quick as possible with compatible materials , if the CO happens to go past your house whilst this is heing done he/she will he pleased that you are looking after the building if you explain. No need for any red type here, common sense should prevail.

It appears that you are unfortunate in the fact that you are not familiar with the procedures that should be followed regarding repairs and alterations to listed buildings, ( hence your questions here of course).

It must be remembered at all times the reasons why a building has a "listed" status, the primary objective here is to adapt youself to live in the building and not adapt the building to serve the various needs that occupiers have.

In your case, and as you pointed out, you wish a number of changes to be made ( even if you consider this will enhance the status of the building), you would need to seek listed building consent with drawings for any proposals preferably via a conservation architect .

The CO, for example, is not going to be too concerned about the colour of your existing modern tilles or the colour or composition of your worktops, but they may want to know what exactly you are going to do with the floor or that you may destroy any original fabric of the building.

Brush up as much as you can on listed buildings and their requirements, and if you love old buildings join a society like the SPAB.