french floor

[BillH]

Bonne chance, Bill!

thanks penners... just going thru your mail , with feltwells , with a toothcomb , so may well hit you with another question.. (by sunday me thinks)


rgds
Bill

Thanks for your contribution AMc

Ok Penners and FW , just taking it all in , and I am sure I am getting there, thankyou.

It's not possible to put joist hangers on the stone walls. There may be local difficulty with that , I am told they won't work on the stone buildings. see picture attached . I guess that render must come off as well !



Taking our 10 x 7m room, I need to own up, there are indents on the 10 m walls, both sides, for windows, about 20 cm. 3 windows each side opposite each other.

Actual size of the room is 11.11 m length x 6.77 mm width plus 40 cm (2x20cm) on each window indent ie 7.17 over all at the wndows . It means the long walls are not straight runs.


so in theory a choice of running three dwarf walls each 11 m.. setting the two sleeper walls back from the main house side walls by about 30 cm each. 5.2m bridges ....

Means where there is a window indent, each side, the sole plate sitting on the sleeper wall , is hanging for as much as
50cm each side as well with three walls .

Will that work or is it to great a distance to hang unspported ? in which case it is four walls x 11m ie 44m of wall. Placing the sleepers much closer to the main walls, but still having an unsuported overhang near the windows .



or.. this way which I seem to favour

running say 5 walls from side to side along the 6.77 m width. with a small gap between the dwarf wall and the outside wall.. say a couple of inches. ie about 35 m of wall.

one dwarf wall each end, say 30 cm from each outside wall. That means the gap between the sole plates on the sleeper walls is 3.5m
as luck would have it the dwarf walls will more or less run into the wider window area, they won't be perfectly evenly spaced, but close.

I was intending/thinking to use 150 x 50mm sole plates and joists. I assume the sole plates are flat on the 150 wide side, and the joists are tall by 150 mm .


If I am working to the edge of what can be properly done, , ie only just enough , or I have got it completly wrong, plse say so.


At one end there will be a slab for the wood fire stove , & I could make that a bit bigger, say 6 m wide, 1m deep so that will help shorten the spans.. only if I have to , otherwise will be 2.5m x 1m

I just stand the slab back from the end of the wall by say 4 inches.

I make the slab the same hieght as the sleeper wall .

Thanks again

Bill

 

[BillH]

wee nudge,

Just looking for encouragement , that I'm on the right track..

Thanks

rgds Bill

 

[Penners]

Bill - sorry but I have to be frank. I'm having a fair bit of trouble understanding all the ins and outs of your explanation. That's not your fault - it's just that it's very hard to follow the minutiae of your particular building from a verbal description.

So I'll just confine myself to generalities, which should be fairly universal in their application.

First, I don't really understand why joist hangers won't work in a stone building. Maybe it's something to do with the randomness of the stone - it may be tricky to find a flat, vertical surface on which to secure them. But I can't believe it's beyond the wit of your builder to sort that problem - even if it means he has to resort to a bolted on support plate instead of the hangers (cut into short lengths if it has to negotiate meandering walls).

Next, whatever the complications of your building's floor plan, with a bit of imaginative adaptation, it shouldn't be difficult to construct dwarf walls in such a way that solidly founded joists can be laid in a way that accommodates every bulge or niche. And if you're planning on 50mm x 150mm joists (yes, they stand on their shorter edge - ie 50mm wide x 150mm deep), I reckon a dimension of around 1.75m to 2.00m between dwarf walls should be perfectly adequate to avoid excessive bounce on the floor.

Other than that, I honestly don't think you should worry too much about the project. It's a simple enough concept and structure. Floorboards running at 90 degrees to joists running at 90 degrees to dwarf walls (with or without sole plates on top of them, but definitely with DPC).

 

[Lime]

AMc.
I've just looked at your before and after pictures and the question came into my head, namely, how do you get to the gas pipe?

 

[BillH]

Dear Penners

Yes it is my fault !
I am understanding, but fear I have to explain all of this next week to a Frenchman who will think I am completly bonkers.


u said, 1.75 to 2 m span between the walls is about right..

with my 5 dwarf walls, I was aiming at 3.5 m ( one dwarf wall each end, say 30 cm from each outside wall. That means the gap between the sole plates on the sleeper walls is 3.5m ) .
I thought 3.5 fell into the range put up in the table by FW

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/tmbc8/note07.pdf


so if a 2 m span is correct, I need to think about one at each end and four total 6 dwarf walls ,

or if 1, 75 then total 7 dwarf walls..

rgds
Bill

 

[Penners]

Bill - as I said above, I'm afraid I have no expert knowledge of such engineering stats - I just go with what feels right, relying on the time-worn principle of "see what seems right then double it to be on the safe side"!

I confess that I missed those Tameside tables further up the thread. They will of course be based on proper engineer's calculations, so I would have no hesitation in using them with confidence.

 

[BillH]

Thankyou very much for all your help Penners, I needed to have some understanding..

even the sharp remarks very early on in this thread from others made me see sense.. thanks to them as well

so will do battle with French builders next week, Waterloo ?

rgds
Bill

 

[AMc]

AMc.
I've just looked at your before and after pictures and the question came into my head, namely, how do you get to the gas pipe?

It's not a gas pipe, it's a radiator pipe from the old central heating system. Not there now!

 

[AMc]

so will do battle with French builders next week, Waterloo ?

I know it feels like a battle sometimes, but in the end it's your house and you are trying to do the best thing for the long term. Your builders may be resistant but try and approach it as a change in your decision which you want them to accommodate rather than a criticism of what they were planning to do.

Don't forget to get the cross ventilation installed before the floor is in or you'll be creating a sealed wet void which will cause a lot of trouble.

 

[Penners]

Hear, hear to AMc's comments above. Just keep saying to the builder,

"C'est moi qui va regler votre compte."!

 

[BillH]

"C'est moi qui va regler votre compte."!

It is I who will settle your account



they dont care !!!

However I don't speako de lingo very well and Mrs Bill has the task as she is Fluent, she is my personal rottweiler and I won't dare argue with her

Bill

ps AMc that will be the approach !