Floorboards - old and new!!

[fernicarry]

Doesn't look like there is any weatherseal around the doors so even if the cill/concrete join was sound water will still get blown under the doors. No wonder its cold there. Those infill panels under the glazing must be losing heat at a prodigious rate too.

A joiner can fit seals around the edge of the doors. Its DIYable if you have the right kit. You should probably also have a stop bead along the bottom for the doors to close against and that will act as a bit of a dam to hold back any water that does get past the seals.

 

[Coles]

Same method outdoors to be as sure as you can.

I did that too and seems pretty solid.

If there is a DPM issue is that costly to fix?

 

[Coles]

Doesn't look like there is any weatherseal around the doors so even if the cill/concrete join was sound water will still get blown under the doors. No wonder its cold there. Those infill panels under the glazing must be losing heat at a prodigious rate too.

A joiner can fit seals around the edge of the doors. Its DIYable if you have the right kit. You should probably also have a stop bead along the bottom for the doors to close against and that will act as a bit of a dam to hold back any water that does get past the seals.

Yes it's really cold. This is an issue with all the external doors, and on my ever growing list of things to do. But I will make this door the priority.

 

[Coles]

It's hard to tell from these angles but thee does not appear to be a DPM/DPC of any kind under the door/window frame. There is also evidence of rainwater penetration through what may have been a mortar fillet beneath the cill which has in turn transferred to the joist ends. Seems likely you've caught this problem before it could cause greater damage but I would test the structural integrity of the cill using any sharp pointy thing to hand and trying to push it into the exposed surface of the wood nearest those stains and along its remaining length. If the pointy thing penetrates easily and the wood feels soft then closer examination will be needed to establish the true extent.

In your earlier photos I wasn't sure but thought I could see some evidence of woodworm exit holes. Did the piece of floorboard that broke up have worm tracks inside? If so, then it may be a good idea to treat the joists and any nearby floorboards just in case their is still a live presence.

Actually you were right about the wood worm. As I have looked further at another piece it just crumbles and you can see the holes and tunnels.

But this wood is really bad quality. I'm not sure what it is but whatever Wicks were selling in 1988. Clearly untreated from what I can tell.

Even if new boards don't match the originals, it feels like these newer boards need replacing.

 

[Cubist]

If there is a DPM issue is that costly to fix?

In hindsight I may have used the DPM term too loosely. With wooden door and window frames such as yours it was not uncommon for the builders to lay a narrow, circa 150mm, strip of DPM directly beneath the cill to block rising damp and sometimes a fillet of mortar would be laid over this before the frame was set in place. Without this there is a risk that damp could be absorbed into the cill timbers to induce rot.

Sometimes its possible to see the edges of such cill membranes as these can project a small distance beyond the face of the supporting brickwork externally and/or internally. Sadly, if no such evidence can be found, there is no easy means to retrospectively install a DPM - the frames would have to taken out and re-installed. Bluntly, in your shoes I feel the best approach would be to remove or move the slab outside to reveal the outer face of the cills edge and to then examine the seam between the foot of the frame and the wall below to determine if additional action is then needed to re-fresh the caulking.

 

[Coles]

In hindsight I may have used the DPM term too loosely. With wooden door and window frames such as yours it was not uncommon for the builders to lay a narrow, circa 150mm, strip of DPM directly beneath the cill to block rising damp and sometimes a fillet of mortar would be laid over this before the frame was set in place. Without this there is a risk that damp could be absorbed into the cill timbers to induce rot.

Sometimes its possible to see the edges of such cill membranes as these can project a small distance beyond the face of the supporting brickwork externally and/or internally. Sadly, if no such evidence can be found, there is no easy means to retrospectively install a DPM - the frames would have to taken out and re-installed. Bluntly, in your shoes I feel the best approach would be to remove or move the slab outside to reveal the outer face of the cills edge and to then examine the seam between the foot of the frame and the wall below to determine if additional action is then needed to re-fresh the caulking.

Thank you. Part of the joist under the door is also rotten. On the positive side these joists only go about 56 inches across as they then hit a brick wall. Which would be the outside wall if the lean to was not there.

Looking at it all I think one issue is the fact they put a ceiling in the coal storage, which is directly under this part of the house. It has stopped the airbrick servicing the house. It is packed with insulation as well.

In the other part of the room (non lean to), if I remove one loose floorboard I can see directly down into the cellar/crawl space below.

I'm wondering if I should remove part of the ceiling and insulation above the air brick so the air flows up without any barriers.

 

[Cubist]

I'm wondering if I should remove part of the ceiling and insulation above the air brick so the air flows up without any barriers.

Suspended wooden floors need good ventilation to aid the inhibition of rot, infestation and fungal decay. In houses like yours there is typically a cross flow between air-bricks situated in opposing walls. The concern I now have is that the air flow beneath the main floors of the house has been compromised and degraded by the work done to construct and insulate the lean-to section. I think you would be well advised to check and ensure that the route between the air-brick in the lean-to and the one or even two that should be in the lower section of the inner wall is clear. As you may now be planning to replace the floorboards in the lean-to area this would enable you to consider implementing a different approach to insulation perhaps suspended between the joists. Others here such as @Lacan07 or maybe @Kearn would be able to offer some good advice on this and other aspects of your floors.

 

[Coles]

Suspended wooden floors need good ventilation to aid the inhibition of rot, infestation and fungal decay. In houses like yours there is typically a cross flow between air-bricks situated in opposing walls. The concern I now have is that the air flow beneath the main floors of the house has been compromised and degraded by the work done to construct and insulate the lean-to section. I think you would be well advised to check and ensure that the route between the air-brick in the lean-to and the one or even two that should be in the lower section of the inner wall is clear. As you may now be planning to replace the floorboards in the lean-to area this would enable you to consider implementing a different approach to insulation perhaps suspended between the joists. Others here such as @Lacan07 or maybe @Kearn would be able to offer some good advice on this and other aspects of your floors.

Thank you. A tradesperson visited today and suggested they cut in a drainage channel into the top the concrete step to stop the water problem. But they quoted £850, which has blown my mind.

I can definitely look at changing the insulation, they also put in about 3 layers of plasterboard to create a ceiling in coal storage, so the air flow from the brick is restricted, so maybe part of that ceiling needs to come down so the air flows.

I did notice today that originally there was probably a radiator by that door, as the old pipes are there. I'm not sure if heat in that area will make any difference or perhaps make it worse.

 

[Zebra]

£850 to do anything at all with that step other than gold plate it is ridiculous.
Go to Screwfix, buy yourself a bolster and a hammer, maybe a crowbar, £30ish, lift the top off it yourself, set it aside, fix the issues discussed above, then maybe later buy a bit of mortar and reset it a bit lower down......

 

[Cubist]

Either I'm losing all touch with reality - entirely possible and likely as that is - or I'm even further out of touch with compensation rates among tradespeople. Did this guy show up in a Ferrari Transit by any chance? I concur absolutely with @Zebra and certainly with regard to the proposed solution of cutting a simple drainage channel!

If I recall correctly, in an earlier photo you shared theres a vertical view of the door cill where it meets that concrete slab in which there appeared to be a narrow fillet of mortar/concrete bridging the gap between the two. That fillet would be very easily removed using a narrow bladed cold chisel with a little help from a good hammer and a bit of muscle in less than an hour or two. At the very least you would be able to more closely examine the state of the cill more closely to assess what further action may then be needed.

I did notice today that originally there was probably a radiator by that door, as the old pipes are there. I'm not sure if heat in that area will make any difference or perhaps make it worse.

That lean-to, I hope, is double glazed but even then in the evenings and certainly in the winter months it will be the source of cold air draughts pulled into the living space by your domestic heating system. The radiator sited in the lean to will almost certainly have been placed there to combat those draughts and help make the living space more comfortable. Opinions will differ but in my opinion you might want to consider alternative approaches concerning how you insulate the living space from those large glazed areas or modify your heating system and/or its layout to negate or even take advantage of the natural air-flow dynamics.

 

[Coles]

Either I'm losing all touch with reality - entirely possible and likely as that is - or I'm even further out of touch with compensation rates among tradespeople. Did this guy show up in a Ferrari Transit by any chance? I concur absolutely with @Zebra and certainly with regard to the proposed solution of cutting a simple drainage channel!

If I recall correctly, in an earlier photo you shared theres a vertical view of the door cill where it meets that concrete slab in which there appeared to be a narrow fillet of mortar/concrete bridging the gap between the two. That fillet would be very easily removed using a narrow bladed cold chisel with a little help from a good hammer and a bit of muscle in less than an hour or two. At the very least you would be able to more closely examine the state of the cill more closely to assess what further action may then be needed.


That lean-to, I hope, is double glazed but even then in the evenings and certainly in the winter months it will be the source of cold air draughts pulled into the living space by your domestic heating system. The radiator sited in the lean to will almost certainly have been placed there to combat those draughts and help make the living space more comfortable. Opinions will differ but in my opinion you might want to consider alternative approaches concerning how you insulate the living space from those large glazed areas or modify your heating system and/or its layout to negate or even take advantage of the natural air-flow dynamics.

Thanks. I think they were taking the pee, the gamble of using the likes of mybuilder.

I'm not sure if these photos help, my partner pulled off the rotten part of the internal fascia board. What is behind is brick, which is the same level as the top of the concrete step outside.



The rotten floorboard was sitting on the bottom brick, then nailed into the joist (also rotten). In this pic you can see the partly removed fascia board sitting infront of another brick. That brick is the same level as the concrete step.
So it seems like the rain water is dripping down the crack in the concrete step and coming out under the bottom of top brick.

 

[Coles]

I'm hoping the water issue is now sorted, plus the awful condensation has stopped since I removed the layers of hardboard. But now I have uncovered a new issue.

One board directly next to the original floor was cut in half and screwed into a row of bricks which is the top of a wall in the crawl space below. They had screwed that board into the bricks, but the bricks are now all loose and cracked.

I guess it would be easy enough to put down a new layer of bricks, but screwing boards into the brick doesn't seem like a great idea.

I'm not quite sure what the best solution would be, or how this would have looked originally. I'm wondering if it was originally built up, until the played around with it in the 1980's. The area has an arch now but I wonder if originally there was a wall with doors, although it would be quite a small space.

 

[Cubist]

I'm guessing that in the first of the photo immediately above, the lounge/living area is to the left and the lean-to on the right as this complies with how I would have expected the lean-to to have been constructed. On the left the floor joists were mounted in pockets in the wall during original construction and a wooden wall plate added to carry the joists in the lean-to area when the was built later.

One board directly next to the original floor was cut in half

The only good reason I can think of for doing this would be to close a gap or eliminate an overlap between the old and new floors that would have resulted from the new board widths used and the dimensions of the lean-to.

They had screwed that board into the bricks, but the bricks are now all loose and cracked.

I guess it would be easy enough to put down a new layer of bricks, but screwing boards into the brick doesn't seem like a great idea.

Drilling holes or driving nails and screws into a top row of bricks is never a good idea and often results in broken bricks or disruption of the mortar joints. I'm afraid you've fallen foul of the 'What the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over' poor practice of some builders and DiYers.

In my view your best option would be to make that top row of bricks secure rather than removing it. That would mean cleaning out all the loose mortar from around the base and and side of any loose bricks and then re-bedding those bricks in new mortar. While doing this you could then insert wooden blocks (say 50mm x 50mm x 10mm) in strategically chosen mortar joints for use later to receive the fixing screws or nails of the floorboards after the mortar has fully cured. I would not try to use a modern rawl-plug of any kind for this, it would be nigh on impossible to hit its entry point accurately from above a new board.

 

[Coles]

I'm guessing that in the first of the photo immediately above, the lounge/living area is to the left and the lean-to on the right as this complies with how I would have expected the lean-to to have been constructed. On the left the floor joists were mounted in pockets in the wall during original construction and a wooden wall plate added to carry the joists in the lean-to area when the was built later.

The only good reason I can think of for doing this would be to close a gap or eliminate an overlap between the old and new floors that would have resulted from the new board widths used and the dimensions of the lean-to.


Drilling holes or driving nails and screws into a top row of bricks is never a good idea and often results in broken bricks or disruption of the mortar joints. I'm afraid you've fallen foul of the 'What the eye doesn't see the heart doesn't grieve over' poor practice of some builders and DiYers.

In my view your best option would be to make that top row of bricks secure rather than removing it. That would mean cleaning out all the loose mortar from around the base and and side of any loose bricks and then re-bedding those bricks in new mortar. While doing this you could then insert wooden blocks (say 50mm x 50mm x 10mm) in strategically chosen mortar joints for use later to receive the fixing screws or nails of the floorboards after the mortar has fully cured. I would not try to use a modern rawl-plug of any kind for this, it would be nigh on impossible to hit its entry point accurately from above a new board.

I think the photo is the other way around, right is the living area and left is the lean to.



Everything you suggest sounds the way to go. I ended up getting the floorboards from an reclamation yard but now don't feel confident I will do a great job myself. I have been quoted £800 to do all you suggest, which is also putting the new floorboards down. That feels expensive to me.

 

[fernicarry]

Turning into quite an epic ... Glad its not just me that gets into these situations...

What's happening with the original joists? Do they stop short on a sleeper wall?

I think I'd remove the brick infill from between the joists and a course (or maybe two, I don't really work in bricks...) from the solid area and try to sister original and lean-to joists together so that you have a complete run front to back. That will make fixing the new boards down more straightforward because you won't be fixing into bricks and help ensure no level change between the two areas.

If you can conspire to add an air brick on the outside wall then you can get air flow under the whole floor although the arrangement with the existing insulation would need to be rejigged.

Good idea to put a breather membrane over the tops of the joists when it comes time to refix your boards to negate any drafts between them.

 

[Coles]

Turning into quite an epic ... Glad its not just me that gets into these situations...

What's happening with the original joists? Do they stop short on a sleeper wall?

I think I'd remove the brick infill from between the joists and a course (or maybe two, I don't really work in bricks...) from the solid area and try to sister original and lean-to joists together so that you have a complete run from to back. That will make fixing the new boards down more straightforward because you won't be fixing into bricks and help ensure no level change between the two areas.

If you can conspire to add an air brick on the outside wall then you can get air flow under the whole floor although the arrangement with the existing insulation would need to be rejigged.

Good idea to put a breather membrane over the tops of the joists when it comes time to refix your boards to negate any drafts between them.

It's so frustrating as this was supposed to be the room with no issues. I pulled everything up ready to just paint as we have agreed to do a wake here on the 22nd for a family friend, so now I have to get the floor sorted by then.

The person who quoted today planned to join the lean-to joists with the joists on the original floor. Then the boards should all sit nicely when making it seamless with the living area original floor.

In the coal storage under the lean to (where the door is), is an air brick in the wall, so there is an air brick on the external wall, then an air brick on the internal wall of the storage, so I gather they are supposed to work together.

 

[fernicarry]

The person who quoted today planned to join the lean-to joists with the joists on the original floor

Given the time pressure it might be wise to go with that quote. Or patch it up temporarily with plywood if you really want to see it through yourself.

there is an air brick on the external wall, then an air brick on the internal wall

My fluid dynamics isn't up to much but I suspect that much less air will get pulled through the inner air brick than the outer so it might not be working so well. Something that could be revisited once you get the floor back down. You might have mentioned but is the floor structure above the coal cellar able to breath on its under side?

 

[Cubist]

The person who quoted today planned to join the lean-to joists with the joists on the original floor.

@Coles ; BEFORE you even consider accepting this quote and commissioning the work PLEASE perform the little test set out below.

1. Take one of the lengths of the floorboards you have already lifted that has a good clean edge on one side - you'll need around 6 feet or so.
2. Clear an area of the living area floor and lay this board on one its planks that exhibits nail/screw holes that fasten it to a joist below and with one end of the loose board projecting into the lean-to area by about 2 - 3 feet.
3. Align the clean/straight edge of the board with at least 2 of the nails/screw heads in the living area plank - this will give you a crude indicator of the joists centre line.
4. Check to see whether the edge of board is anywhere near the centre line of an exposed joist in the lean-to area.

The chances that it will, and will do so for all the joists under the living area floor, are vanishingly small.

The approach suggested by this contractor will not work unless he removes all the joists from the lean-to and inserts at least 2.5 to 3 feet of a new joist under the living area floor so that it can be bolted to the side of an existing joist - this is the technique known as 'sistering'. This implies that, if there is limited accessibility to the joists from below the living area then those floorboards too would have to be lifted to allow installation of the new joists.

All of this work and expense would, in my view, be unnecessary and entirely avoidable.

 

[Coles]

@Coles ; BEFORE you even consider accepting this quote and commissioning the work PLEASE perform the little test set out below.

1. Take one of the lengths of the floorboards you have already lifted that has a good clean edge on one side - you'll need around 6 feet or so.
2. Clear an area of the living area floor and lay this board on one its planks that exhibits nail/screw holes that fasten it to a joist below and with one end of the loose board projecting into the lean-to area by about 2 - 3 feet.
3. Align the clean/straight edge of the board with at least 2 of the nails/screw heads in the living area plank - this will give you a crude indicator of the joists centre line.
4. Check to see whether the edge of board is anywhere near the centre line of an exposed joist in the lean-to area.

The chances that it will, and will do so for all the joists under the living area floor, are vanishingly small.

The approach suggested by this contractor will not work unless he removes all the joists from the lean-to and inserts at least 2.5 to 3 feet of a new joist under the living area floor so that it can be bolted to the side of an existing joist - this is the technique known as 'sistering'. This implies that, if there is limited accessibility to the joists from below the living area then those floorboards too would have to be lifted to allow installation of the new joists.

All of this work and expense would, in my view, be unnecessary and entirely avoidable.

Thanks, I can see the joists on the other part of the room and they do line up but reading your post I did speak to the builder again and he do what we originally planned by peppering in the timber into the brick wall. But it's the same price. It just seems excessive to me.

 

[Cubist]

I'm glad to hear the guy has agreed to simply replace or repair the one rotted joist you found and to lay the circa 5 square meters of the floorboards you've purchased. If the £800 he's quoted includes sanding and finishing the entire floor spanning the lean-to and living area then that price may be reasonable. If it doesn't, then he's ripping you off.