yamin
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Good point, and extremely attractive to those of us who aren't the best or most accurate at painting window frames!!! 
- Thread starter Ian Bond
- Start date
Andrew mentioned paint:
Linseed paint may perform better in the long term. I hope so. Is it more breathable than the old paints though? You may recall this from an earlier discussion...
My 1880s Advanced Building Construction book states:
I'm determined to try and use the Holkham stuff, but am struggling with the wet weather. It's not feasible for me to remove the sashes to paint them indoors, and I still have to paint the frames and sills anyway. Progress is slow when you need at least 2 days between coats.
Is it sensible to apply linseed paint if it is going to rain heavily within the next 24 hours?
It was bad enough using modern paints that were touch dry in 4 hours or so. But they've started peeling within 2 years, particularly from the putty lines. Not a mistake that I'm planning to repeat.
Linseed paint may perform better in the long term. I hope so. Is it more breathable than the old paints though? You may recall this from an earlier discussion...
My 1880s Advanced Building Construction book states:
I'm determined to try and use the Holkham stuff, but am struggling with the wet weather. It's not feasible for me to remove the sashes to paint them indoors, and I still have to paint the frames and sills anyway. Progress is slow when you need at least 2 days between coats.
Is it sensible to apply linseed paint if it is going to rain heavily within the next 24 hours?
It was bad enough using modern paints that were touch dry in 4 hours or so. But they've started peeling within 2 years, particularly from the putty lines. Not a mistake that I'm planning to repeat.
Yamin
I'm currently painting 16 and 20 pane windows, so I know it can be tricky, especially from a ladder. Between downpours!
Don't use masking tape or paint shields. Just use a brush of a comfortable size, and don't be too fussy about getting the paint in an absolutely perfect line along the glass. With practice you can do this quickly and neatly.
The paint needs to be taken about 1/16th of an inch out onto the glass anyway, to seal the putty and stop water getting in. If the putty and painting has been done right, you won't see a border around each pane when looking out.
You just need a straight edge and sharp scraper to neaten the paint lines up at the end of the job.
More details here:
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/sashwindows/sashwindows.htm
I'm currently painting 16 and 20 pane windows, so I know it can be tricky, especially from a ladder. Between downpours!
Don't use masking tape or paint shields. Just use a brush of a comfortable size, and don't be too fussy about getting the paint in an absolutely perfect line along the glass. With practice you can do this quickly and neatly.
The paint needs to be taken about 1/16th of an inch out onto the glass anyway, to seal the putty and stop water getting in. If the putty and painting has been done right, you won't see a border around each pane when looking out.
You just need a straight edge and sharp scraper to neaten the paint lines up at the end of the job.
More details here:
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/sashwindows/sashwindows.htm
yamin
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Thanks Ian, thats helpful advice. As I say, we are stuck with our paint free UPVC ugly awful things at the moment. However, we do have a rather gorgeous metal casement window with wooden frame, that is now an inside window that theres a conservatory on the other side of. Amazingly it wasn't subject to the sacrifice that the other windows were. It does however need years of modern gloss removing from it. As far as I can tell its probably victorian (prob not original Georgian....) glass, in that it just has an older, less perfect look. Anyhow, need to scrape paint off and redo, so your advice will be useful for that - but also, any advice on removing years of built up stuff?
Cheers
Yamin
Cheers
Yamin
I've used chemical strippers such as Nitromors. Unpleasant fumes and stings a bit (should wear protective gear!). Messy and tedious job, but it worked.
Klingstrip was very effective (but expensive). It got many layers of paint off in one go though, and was less painful to use than the Nitromors.
Hot air gun: Need extreme care to avoid cracking glass and scorching timber. Plus you don't want to create fumes with the old lead paint (and I doubt that fumes from new paint are particularly health-giving either).
I'm wary of using heat anywhere near precious antique glass, although I have managed it. It is not something I'd risk again though - perhaps just the faces and outer edges of the sash.
Holkham (linseed paint people) advise using heat rather than chemicals, as failure to neutralise properly can lead to failure of subsequent paint coats. I've washed down the timber well afterwards, let it dry and had no problems.
I've also seen a chap use steam to soften putty on a sash, so he could reglaze (video on t'internet this was). The steam brought the paint off pretty well too, and he scraped as much as he could off whilst he was removing the putty.
He claimed that although the moisture level in the timber increased initially, it was back to normal after 24 - 48 hours. What worries me is the glued joints coming apart, but he didn't mention this. The glass didn't crack either.
I've used steam to get layers of stubborn emulsion of walls and ceilings prior to limewashing. I'm wary of using it on a delicate sash to be honest.
I tend to use a combination of the above methods, just picking what seems safest and most appropriate to the particular job - i.e. avoiding using a hot air gun along glazing bars with irreplaceable cylinder or crown glass.
The best method is - avoid stripping the paint if you can help it!
Klingstrip was very effective (but expensive). It got many layers of paint off in one go though, and was less painful to use than the Nitromors.
Hot air gun: Need extreme care to avoid cracking glass and scorching timber. Plus you don't want to create fumes with the old lead paint (and I doubt that fumes from new paint are particularly health-giving either).
I'm wary of using heat anywhere near precious antique glass, although I have managed it. It is not something I'd risk again though - perhaps just the faces and outer edges of the sash.
Holkham (linseed paint people) advise using heat rather than chemicals, as failure to neutralise properly can lead to failure of subsequent paint coats. I've washed down the timber well afterwards, let it dry and had no problems.
I've also seen a chap use steam to soften putty on a sash, so he could reglaze (video on t'internet this was). The steam brought the paint off pretty well too, and he scraped as much as he could off whilst he was removing the putty.
He claimed that although the moisture level in the timber increased initially, it was back to normal after 24 - 48 hours. What worries me is the glued joints coming apart, but he didn't mention this. The glass didn't crack either.
I've used steam to get layers of stubborn emulsion of walls and ceilings prior to limewashing. I'm wary of using it on a delicate sash to be honest.
I tend to use a combination of the above methods, just picking what seems safest and most appropriate to the particular job - i.e. avoiding using a hot air gun along glazing bars with irreplaceable cylinder or crown glass.
The best method is - avoid stripping the paint if you can help it!
yamin
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We've replaced the horrible door with a nice wooden one now, but all else is the same.
p.s 1. Yes, the block paving also an eighties addition
p.s.2 Would it be wrong to force child and his twin brother into apprenticeship to master craftsmen builder when they are 6? :wink:
p.s 1. Yes, the block paving also an eighties addition
p.s.2 Would it be wrong to force child and his twin brother into apprenticeship to master craftsmen builder when they are 6? :wink:
yamin
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With no real knowledge I think that the bays were victorian additions to an earlier frontage. The house is older at the back (1780) and has a double roof. Front apparently added on in victorian times, but a few clues lead us to believe that whole house may be old but with victorian 'agrandisement' as you see. Hard to say. Really horrible tho, you can see why we'd love to change them. Front door helped though......
yamin
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Ian, thanks loads for all that window advice - have printed it out and will sit and think about which way to go. Great to have such full advice and facts thoug, thanks.
skier-hughes
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yamin said:
Most definately, get them going from about 3 so that they don't fall to far behind the rest :shock:
biffvernon
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The car is also anachronistic. Perhaps a landau would suit better.
yamin
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Can I dock my ipod in that?
Shoving a tree trunk in one end of a CNC window production machine and then collect the finished " windows" at the other end is not exactly workmanship of distinction that should be required in listed/period properties.
When Mother Earth decides to "pull the plug" we will have to learn the basics all over again. Well, that is life.
When Mother Earth decides to "pull the plug" we will have to learn the basics all over again. Well, that is life.
yamin
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middi said:
And then there is real life, with those of us who want to 'do the right thing' but lack funds. We are the ones who live in the 'modest' period properties, who don't and aren't ever likely to have the money to pay 'master craftsmen' and are in all good faith looking for a fair compromise that doesn't ruin/spoil/desecrate the spirit of the period property but allows us to afford it. Surely this is a compromise that has gone on for generations? Sorry if this comes across as snippy, your message seemed a little damning, but its early, maybe I got that wrong!
Yamin
I agree to some extent Yamin.
Middi made his own windows - he's got the skills and set-up to do this, which is not the case for the average home owner looking to replace windows.
My house is neither listed, list-able, or of any historic value as far as the heritage bodies are likely to be concerned.
It's also in a short terrace, with a mix of different styles and colours of uPVC and timber casement windows. Only one has timber sash windows.
The market value of the house is low, and it makes no sense to spend (i.e. waste) vast sums of money on it.
Some decades ago the original sashes were replaced with timber casements, where owners were unable/unwilling to repair the existing sash windows or have costly replicas made. Later, when these poor quality timber windows had rotted, uPVC was available and was the cheapest option.
I can't see how even the most basic sash window is ever going to be cheaper to produce than the cheapest and simplest plastic window (or timber one for that matter).
Perhaps mass produced components and machine made joints could help to bring the cost of a timber sash window down to a more affordable level, where the highest standards are not required?
I get the impression that engineered timber is another attempt to bring the cost down. If it significantly reduces the lifespan of the window, or makes future repair more difficult, then it's a compromise too far.
I'm sure that the original joiner who made my windows back in the 1830s would think that this is all ridiculous. Replacing entire windows every 20 to 40 years, rather than repairing or replacing components?! How wasteful, not to say expensive.
It should be rare that an entire frame needs chucking - perhaps a sill, and maybe repairs to the lower parts of the stiles at the sill joints.
Middi made his own windows - he's got the skills and set-up to do this, which is not the case for the average home owner looking to replace windows.
My house is neither listed, list-able, or of any historic value as far as the heritage bodies are likely to be concerned.
It's also in a short terrace, with a mix of different styles and colours of uPVC and timber casement windows. Only one has timber sash windows.
The market value of the house is low, and it makes no sense to spend (i.e. waste) vast sums of money on it.
Some decades ago the original sashes were replaced with timber casements, where owners were unable/unwilling to repair the existing sash windows or have costly replicas made. Later, when these poor quality timber windows had rotted, uPVC was available and was the cheapest option.
I can't see how even the most basic sash window is ever going to be cheaper to produce than the cheapest and simplest plastic window (or timber one for that matter).
Perhaps mass produced components and machine made joints could help to bring the cost of a timber sash window down to a more affordable level, where the highest standards are not required?
I get the impression that engineered timber is another attempt to bring the cost down. If it significantly reduces the lifespan of the window, or makes future repair more difficult, then it's a compromise too far.
I'm sure that the original joiner who made my windows back in the 1830s would think that this is all ridiculous. Replacing entire windows every 20 to 40 years, rather than repairing or replacing components?! How wasteful, not to say expensive.
It should be rare that an entire frame needs chucking - perhaps a sill, and maybe repairs to the lower parts of the stiles at the sill joints.
yamin
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Exactly! Much better put than I did, but exactly what I was meaning to say. I suppose the difficulty/philosophical question would be what, in 100 years time, people find unacceptable. Will the purists be proved right and lauded as protecting the countrys heritage better than those of us who make compromises? As you say, some compromises are a step too far, be that from an aesthetic/purist point of view, or from a cost vs quality/durability one. Most of us would dearly loveto completely restore to a truly original level if finance weren't an issue. However, I think that whilst there is a lot of debate/discussion to be had around what constitutes unacceptable as a compromise, to have people feel that renovation is an arena that should not be entered into without a completely purist approach would be to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and leave a lot of modest properties, representing a large section of vernacular architecture, at the hands of Sarah Beanys Property Ladder guests!
I prefer to avoid the (pejorative) term 'purist'.
I'm not arguing against the principles of conservation. Once it's gone, it's gone for good. Regional and craftsman specific variations are lost forever when replaced with standardised versions. I've done it myself - one original window, and 3 replicas albeit replacing modern casements. The mouldings on the replica only approximate the original. A late 19th century window has been put in next to the original - it was a copy but also differs on close inspection. It's now part of the history of the house, and arguably worth retaining. Not everything is, but I'm not going into that here.
There could be a case for compromise in buildings like mine: a window is an important feature and should be aesthetically pleasing as well as functional and durable. It's a choice that I've made to put sash windows back in, even though the house isn't listed - I just wanted it right. Ditto for my use of lime plaster etc.
Ultimately I expect that my replicas, and even the original will be replaced with plastic - I can't influence what future owners do, and these houses will never be protected, as they are not 'special' enough.
When profit is the only objective, and there's no protection in the way, then I'm afraid that it's unlikely that expensive sash windows will add value.
But in a house like yours Yamin, then maybe putting timber sashes in would add value. But is it enough to justify the expenditure? If not, then you'll just be doing it for your own benefit, as it's your home. That's what I'm doing, so I think we agree
You could replace the windows in stages, as funds allow. I'd want the very best materials and design that I could afford. It would be heartbreaking to find a cheap alternative failing in short order, and becoming a maintenance nightmare.
I'm not arguing against the principles of conservation. Once it's gone, it's gone for good. Regional and craftsman specific variations are lost forever when replaced with standardised versions. I've done it myself - one original window, and 3 replicas albeit replacing modern casements. The mouldings on the replica only approximate the original. A late 19th century window has been put in next to the original - it was a copy but also differs on close inspection. It's now part of the history of the house, and arguably worth retaining. Not everything is, but I'm not going into that here.
There could be a case for compromise in buildings like mine: a window is an important feature and should be aesthetically pleasing as well as functional and durable. It's a choice that I've made to put sash windows back in, even though the house isn't listed - I just wanted it right. Ditto for my use of lime plaster etc.
Ultimately I expect that my replicas, and even the original will be replaced with plastic - I can't influence what future owners do, and these houses will never be protected, as they are not 'special' enough.
When profit is the only objective, and there's no protection in the way, then I'm afraid that it's unlikely that expensive sash windows will add value.
But in a house like yours Yamin, then maybe putting timber sashes in would add value. But is it enough to justify the expenditure? If not, then you'll just be doing it for your own benefit, as it's your home. That's what I'm doing, so I think we agree
You could replace the windows in stages, as funds allow. I'd want the very best materials and design that I could afford. It would be heartbreaking to find a cheap alternative failing in short order, and becoming a maintenance nightmare.
Penners
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yamin said:
That's a very pertinent question, and one to which I don't know the answer for certain.
However, consider the amount of timber in a typical window frame. Not much. The window is mostly holes, surrounded by bits of wood. The amount of labour required to make the frame, however, is considerable. So the material is likely to represent a fairly modest proportion of the overall cost.
If you use solid timber, there's not much labour input required to get the timber to the state needed for the joiner to use - Mother Nature does most of the work. Engineered timber, on the other hand, requires a fair amount of human input to make the glue, laminate the timber, and so on.
Once you've reached this point, the amount of labour required to make the solid timber and/or the engineered timber window is the same.
I therefore think it's unlikely that engineered timber frames will be significantly cheaper than solid timber ones.
Good point about the labour costs Penners. Not everything's been automated (yet) :?
Perhaps in conjunction with economies of scale, the engineered timber may help maintain the manufacturers profit margins (less waste) ?
Possibly no major difference in purchase price between unsorted redwood or engineered timber windows. If I wanted any more windows I'd ask for quotes for a couple of options
* English oak for the sills at least
Frames and sashes either:
* Douglas fir
* Redwood (unsorted)
* engineered timber (not happy with this option, just for comparison)
And I'd want to look into this article, and be certain that I'm being told the truth about the source of the timber.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20070614/ai_n19288043/pg_2
Perhaps in conjunction with economies of scale, the engineered timber may help maintain the manufacturers profit margins (less waste) ?
Possibly no major difference in purchase price between unsorted redwood or engineered timber windows. If I wanted any more windows I'd ask for quotes for a couple of options
* English oak for the sills at least
Frames and sashes either:
* Douglas fir
* Redwood (unsorted)
* engineered timber (not happy with this option, just for comparison)
And I'd want to look into this article, and be certain that I'm being told the truth about the source of the timber.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20070614/ai_n19288043/pg_2