Electric central heating

[Penners]

electric systems are comparatively expensive to run - they are using a 100% efficient fuel

Sorry. Electricity is 100% efficient at the point of consumption, but only because the inefficiencies have been shifted back down the line to the power station. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean that they don't exist - or that you're not paying for them.

is there no system that gives a little bit more back than you put in?

Sorry again. That's what's called "perpetual motion". It can't happen.

 

[Nemesis]

As indeed are many others.

 

[shelli]

ahh - Physics

can't create energy and all that - just alter states of being

we're all doomed

 

[Penners]

alter states of being

That reminds me - I must start that diet.

 

[MdB]

because electricity is expensive to produce - electric systems are comparatively expensive to run - they are using a 100% efficient fuel

Converting heat energy (oil/gas/coal) or potential energy (hydro/wind(?)) into electrical energy is difficult and inefficient which is why electrical energy costs more than other types. Converting electrical energy back to heat energy on the other hand is easy and 100% efficient.

Is there no way to win with energy? - is there no system that gives a little bit more back than you put in?

Nominally there is no way to win with energy. You can't generate it and you can't get rid of it (*). All you can do is convert it from one form to another and/or move it around a bit. If you could find a way to get more out than you put in then you will have invented a perpetual motion machine / broken the laws of thermodynamics / solved the energy crisis and won the Nobel prize.

Or is it always equivalent and we are just fooling ourselves thinking it matters a bean whether we use ground source heat pumps or pig poo - the values out always match the values in?

Values out always equals the values in BUT there is a way to cheat.

Converting Energy
Cold house + energy source (oil / gas / coal / electric) -> Warm House + slight warming of outside due to flue losses
Warm house + Time -> Cold house + slight warming of outside as the heat escapes

Moving Energy
Cold house + Cold garden + Electric to drive heat pump -> Warm House + Even colder garden
Warm house + Time -> Cold house + slight warming of outside as the heat escapes

In the first case of converting energy, the amount of energy you put in will always be the same (electricity) or more (gas / oil / coal) than the energy that ends up as warmth in the house.

In the second case, the amount of energy you put in to drive the heat pump will be considerably less than the energy that ends up as warmth in the house. This due to the fact that the extra energy has been moved from the garden into the house by the heat pump.

In both cases the energy in is the same as the energy out, however the second case you get the energy from the garden for free. If you define efficiency as the amount of useful energy used to heat the house divided by the energy you have paid for then you get the following results:

gas / oil - 25% to 60% (these figures are a guess but I think they are about right)
direct electric heating - 100% exactly. (**)
heat pump - 300% to 400%

The above figures are for the efficiency of the conversion at your house only. The electricity has to be generated in the first place and this will greatly reduce the overall efficiency.

(*) We can argue about nuclear here if you want but e=mc^2 shows that matter is a form of energy storage.
(**) Don't believe any direct electric heat supplier that claims that their heater is more efficient / more energy saving / more anything than any other electric heater. They are all 100% efficient at converting electricity into heat.

 

[biffvernon]

The world has a few hundred of years worth of coal, the UK alone has many decades worth, then there is all the oil and gas under Alaska, and the Antarctic and probably in other places yet to be found. I appreciate the environmental issues with exploiting such resources, but I really can't imagine them being left in the ground as other resources dwindle.

There is much less coal that some folk like to imagine. With a 'business as usual' scenario (which won't happen) we reach peak coal in a couple of decades, and global warming catastrophe becomes as good as certain.

What is more important than ultimate recoverable resources is the rate at which energy can be supplied. A near infinite resource of oil shale will not change the physical supply issue if the oil can only be squeezed out at a rate slower than our demand. For the UK over the coming decade the issue will be a physical shortage of gas, as we compete on price with the rest of Europe for the Norwegian supply and with the Chinese for Russian supply, and a physical shortage of electricity generating capacity where it really is quite hard to see how the lights can stay on, given the rate of decommissioning of old plant and the rate of construction of new.

You're right, Flyfisher, it's hard to imagine fossil fuels being left in the ground, but unless we do, future generations are toast.

One glimmer of hope came earlier this week from the King of Saudi Arabia:

Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah said he had ordered some new oil discoveries left untapped to preserve oil wealth in the world's top exporter for future generations…
"When there were some new finds, I told them, 'no, leave it in the ground, with grace from god, our children need it'," King Abdullah said…

More here

 

[Penners]

King of Saudi Arabia:

When there were some new finds, I told them, 'no, leave it in the ground, with grace from god, our children need it'.

Could there be a flaw in that thinking, if it were extended to all producers? I suspect the world would collapse to a point where our children might not exist.

 

[Flyfisher]

I may be being a tad unfair here, but could the King of Saudi possibly be more concerned with money than energy and climate change, i.e. they've got more than enough money right now so why bother to sell more oil today, why not wait until tomorrow?

As for energy and conservation thereof, with the small exception of nuclear power, we're entirely dependent on solar energy; even fossil fuels are only a form of solar energy storage. Trouble is, they store and concentrate energy over millions of years and then we come along and release it all in a couple of hundred years, so some sort of global impact is hardly surprising. I just hope Biff is wrong about the real impact starting within the next decade because, and let's be honest, there really is no sign that any government is taking things anywhere near seriously enough to achieve any significant changes within such a short timescale

 

[biffvernon]

I hope Biff is wrong too, but I fear he is not.

It's unlikely that King Abdullah thinks he's got more than enough money right now so why bother to sell more oil today. He could always use more money to buy more of the world's industry.

He may be doing it out of altruism because "with grace from god, our children need it". Or he may actually know that Saudi Production is very close to its peak and expanding production is actually impossible. He could then use the 'our children need it' arguement to avoid admiting the truth.

Yes, it's going to very tricky to avoid the world collapsing to a point where our children might not exist. We are caught 'twixt a rock and a hard place.

 

[Penners]

Has anyone else recently had an email invitation to subscribe the BBC Green Newsletter? All kinds of news, hints and tips to help you reduce your carbon footprint.

I got the first one today. Fascinating articles on holidays in Ecuador, Ethiopia, Honduras, etc (you fly there, of course). Plus an advertisement for days out at the NEC - BBC Good Food Exhibition, BBC Gardeners World Live, etc. Have you seen the size of the car parks at the NEC?

I just get the feeling that they might be slightly missing the point.

 

[Nemesis]

I susbscribe to the CPRE one - I suggest you cancel the BBC one and do the same!

 

[Lime]

Has anyone else recently had an email invitation to subscribe the BBC Green Newsletter? All kinds of news, hints and tips to help you reduce your carbon footprint.

I got the first one today. Fascinating articles on holidays in Ecuador, Ethiopia, Honduras, etc (you fly there, of course). Plus an advertisement for days out at the NEC - BBC Good Food Exhibition, BBC Gardeners World Live, etc. Have you seen the size of the car parks at the NEC?

I just get the feeling that they might be slightly missing the point.

Hear! Hear!
It's enough to make you cry.

 

[Flyfisher]

I just get the feeling that they might be slightly missing the point.

Exactly. Trouble is, it's not just the BBC - it's all of us. OK, we might be a bit more aware of the issues, change our lightbulbs, stop using plastic carrier bags, turn the heating down a bit, wear an extra jumper in winter etc etc, but there is not enough real change going on that suggests that we're taking the whole issue anywhere near seriously enough. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7359018.stm

Also, an interesting article in a recent New Scientist about how all civilisations may be inherently doomed and why should ours be any different.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19826501.500-why-the-demise-of-civilisation-may-be-inevitable.html

 

[fatsheep]

Hi,
I'm a bit late to this thread but are the electric boilers like the ones glow worm advertise http://www.glow-wormheating.co.uk/index.php not electric central heating in the conventional sense?

Unless I'm missing something obvious, all those boilers are gas boilers.The need for a flue gives it away.

Opps sorry Quite Right, I sent the wrong link.
Try these
http://www.dealec.co.uk/acatalog/fusion_boilers.html

http://www.burnleyplumbing.co.uk/heating/electric_boiler.htm

http://www.dealec.co.uk/acatalog/Heatrae_Sadia_Electroheat_Amptec_Electric_Boilers.html

http://www.toolstation.com/?r=s&feature=95874

I'm not advocating them, just wondering if they would do the job.

Cheers
David

 

[biffvernon]

Chris Skrebowski, editor of Petroleum Review:
"King Abdullah's statement represents the final seal of approval on an emerging Saudi policy of restricting output to save oil for future generations. In recent years the Saudis have been managing expectations of future capacity steadily downwards. No one now talks of their reaching 15mn b/d. If they reach 12.5mn b/d, while maintaining 1-2mn b/d of ‘spare' capacity, we should plan for Saudi production to be 9-11mn b/d for the foreseeable future.

"High oil prices and bulging treasuries are giving producing countries the option of maximizing plateau production. We may never know if these decisions are being dictated by geology or driven by a political imperative of ‘saving oil for later generations.' I suspect it's a mixture of the two.

and

Matt Simmons, chairman of Simmons & Co. International:
"This statement by the Supreme Ruler of Saudi Arabia has far-reaching implications. That King Addullah would now instruct his servants to conserve the oil they pump and save some for the kids and grandkids of today's Saudi citizens is most profound.

"King Abdullah has exhibited a sense of wisdom not seen since his brother, King Faisal ruled the Kingdom until his tragic assassination. Assuming his health continues, he might lead Saudi Arabia successfully into a post-peak world and create sustainable middle class wealth for the 90% of Saudi Arabia who had accidentally been left behind.

"The world should bless this intelligent pronouncement. It is a reflection that Twilight set in on the oilfields of Arabia a few years ago."

(Matt Simmons wrote Twighlight in the Desert, one of the key books alerting the world to the fact that all might not be well forever.)

 

[MdB]

http://www.dealec.co.uk/acatalog/fusion_boilers.html

http://www.burnleyplumbing.co.uk/heating/electric_boiler.htm

http://www.dealec.co.uk/acatalog/Heatrae_Sadia_Electroheat_Amptec_Electric_Boilers.html

http://www.toolstation.com/?r=s&feature=95874

I'm not advocating them, just wondering if they would do the job.

They would heat water to drive a radiator type of system. Not sure why you would want to though. You would have the disadvantages of a wet system (pipes everywhere, large radiators, little flexibility, heat loss in pipes) without the advantages (low running costs).

 

[fatsheep]

Hi
Because its just possible that my only alternative would be an electric imersion for hot water and a lot of plug in electric heaters for warmth.

Cheers
David

 

[Flyfisher]

King Abdullah has exhibited a sense of wisdom not seen since his brother,

Of course, if you control the supply of something (or a very large proportion of it) and the demand is pretty much unlimited then you can sell less for the same, or more, money. It's the best of both worlds - conserve your stock while maintaining, or even increasing, your income. Against that background, it's very easy to be 'noble' concerning future generations. Still, I guess the end result is more important than the reasons.

Wasn't it only last year that economists were predicting doom and gloom if the oil price broke through the $50 barrier? - and yet here we are at $117. OK we're all moaning about having to pay more for petrol, but the world goes on largely unchanged. Perhaps there's not enough 'shock value' anymore that might really jolt people out of their apparent complacency.

 

[Lime]

King Abdullah has exhibited a sense of wisdom not seen since his brother,

Of course, if you control the supply of something (or a very large proportion of it) and the demand is pretty much unlimited then you can sell less for the same, or more, money. It's the best of both worlds - conserve your stock while maintaining, or even increasing, your income. Against that background, it's very easy to be 'noble' concerning future generations. Still, I guess the end result is more important than the reasons.

Wasn't it only last year that economists were predicting doom and gloom if the oil price broke through the $50 barrier? - and yet here we are at $117. OK we're all moaning about having to pay more for petrol, but the world goes on largely unchanged. Perhaps there's not enough 'shock value' anymore that might really jolt people out of their apparent complacency.

Shock value?
I don't think prices make people change their habits and customs very much until they don't have enough money to buy what they want.
Then they have to think how to get more money.
What does shock people is not being able to buy what they want even though they have the money to buy it.
Then, after the shock, they worry.

 

[Lime]

Hi
Because its just possible that my only alternative would be an electric imersion for hot water and a lot of plug in electric heaters for warmth.

Cheers
David

Forgive me if I sound hard.
I cannot understand anyone wanting to spend a large sum of money buying a system of heating that will always cost a lot to run.
If electricity is the only fuel you consider possible to use then buy simple cheap heaters with a thermostat and timer for each room.
The heating effect will be the same as a much more expensive "plumbed in" job and be more versatile too.
Your running costs will be the same but with the great advantage that your initial capital outlay will be minimal.
Spend what you save on insulation and save even more.