Electric central heating

[vicky whitworth]

I'm after some advice. We want to install central heating into our cottage. We don't have any central heating at the moment. We do have oil to the property as we have a Rayburn. There is no gas supply. But I think the future of oil is precarious so we are replacing the oil-fired rayburn with an electric Aga and wanted to investigate electric central heating too. Small cottage/small rooms sizes - heating will have to do seven radiators.

Does anyone have any advice/experience of electric central heating boilers? Many thanks.

 

[caliwag]

Wouldn't you go for Propane?...see comparison.

http://www.nottenergy.com/

Also take a look at the ongoing debate on http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk
They hate direct electric on that forum. Mind you some contributors (Tony) hates heating systems.
Excellent forum though

 

[Flyfisher]

When you say there is no gas supply, do you mean none in the near vicinity as well as not actually connected to the property?
We recently had mains gas connected to our property for just £295 plus a local 'man-with-a-digger' to dig the trench.
You can check availability very easily via http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Gas/Connections/domestic/

 

[MdB]

LPG has the same problems as oil and costs roughly the same.

I've not heard of electric central heating but if it exists then it will cost a fortune to run. Better would be electric wall heaters as this would be slightly more efficient but still very expensive. The usual method for electrical heating is night storage heaters (which I hate).

We are in a similar position and have decided to go for a ground source heat pump system. These are not for everyone and are expensive to install. You also need a very well insulation house with a large thermal mass to hold the heat. They also don't work well with radiators with underfloor pipework being the best.

 

[chuckey]

There is a manufacturer (in the midlands) that supply an electric heated water storage system. This uses ordinary radiators the difference being that a huge insulated tank of water is heated overnight on economy 7 tariff and used in them during the day. It is thermally better then electric storage heaters, because when the rads are switched off there is no heat leakage. Ordinary electric storage heaters are extremely agricultural in construction and insulation. They are great if you want your bedroom to get hot after midnight and be cold in the early evening.
The BIG disadvantage is that you need the space for the tank. I was thinking perhaps you could get one of these tanks with an extra water coil in it so you can top the tank up with free solar heat.
As you are contemplating using electricity, perhaps a ground source heat pump could be what you want. These use free heat from the soil at a low temperature and by means of a compressor change the temperature to some thing useful , normally 30 deg C. With these systems you get 3 units of heat from the ground for every unit of heat you use in the compressor (which is used for house heating anyway) so your electric bills are in the order of 25-30% of the value of a direct electric fire, but there are capital and installation costs.
Frank

 

[biffvernon]

I think the future of oil is precarious so we are replacing the oil-fired rayburn with an electric Aga and wanted to investigate electric central heating too.

UK faces a more challenging situation regarding electricity than oil, substituting electricity for oil doesn’t seem smart as we run out of North Sea gas, the nuclear power stations fall apart and the many coal power stations are closed. All possible new generation from wind is already accounted for by the decline in conventional generation. Today we generate some 400TWh per year, I think we'll be doing really well to generate 300TWh in 2018 - given that decline the last thing we need is a new use for electricity. I do see electricity playing a far greater role in the future, we just have to get through the next couple of decades.

The above is taken from a similar discussion at PowerSwitch today.

 

[biffvernon]

duplicate deleted

 

[shelli]

Hi Vicky

Have you got a working chimney?

why not get a multi fuel stove with a 40,000 BTU backboiler - that will do 8 radiators at 5,000 BTU per Radiator and heat up water. - disadavantage is that you need to light it to get hot water - not ideal in summer - unless you have ancillary back up in form of immersion heater.

Alternatively - if you are set on electricity and just need heating in rooms rather than Hot water too - There is a german firm (not sure which) that does thermostatically programmable radiators - they are self contained units so require no pump or pipes to circulate - they take a fair bit of programming i understand.

Also Heatrae Sadia do full electric heating systems with water tank and radiators - they also take a fair bit of user programming - 42 settings - so if simplicity is your thing this might be a turn-off. they are also fairly expensive to buy and install and if they go wrong (it is usually the PCB that goes wrong ) parts are expensive as the main components are electrical sealed pieces. you cant just replace a valve here and there

I wouldn't go for propane - and have posted such in the past - gas prices and supply are probably in as much of an uncertain state as oil

Shelli

 

[Flyfisher]

I wouldn't go for propane - and have posted such in the past - gas prices and supply are probably in as much of an uncertain state as oil

As far back as I can remember, electricity has always been more expensive than oil, which in turn has always been more expensive than mains gas. As far as CH systems are concerned, gas boilers also seem to be quite a bit cheaper than oil boilers and, of course, mains gas has the added advantage of not needing an expensive fuel storage tank. I agree that the absolute prices are very uncertain these days, unless you consider the inevitable ever-increasing prices to be a measure of certainty in itself!

But, ignoring the ever-increasing costs, I'm not aware of any factors that are likely to affect these relative costs in the near future, by which I mean about 10-15 years, or the typical lifetime of a CH boiler. Therefore, I don't see much point in trying to take a 'lifetime' view of what type of heating system to choose - just choose the cheapest you can get right now and be prepared to change part of it in 10-15 years time. I would have happily paid £1000-1500 to have a mains gas supply installed instead of choosing oil (or LPG), perhaps even a bit more, because it would have still worked out cheaper than an oil boiler and a large storage tank. And during those 10-15 years I would hope that the emerging 'alternative' technologies mature sufficiently to become much more cost-effective.

Another possibility, albeit perhaps a little risky, is to 'hedge' against rising fuel prices by investing in the energy companies that profit from such price rises. I've noticed that my BG shares have risen by 75% in the past 12 months, and that's with the current general stock market fallout arising out the financial sector 'crisis'. I wish I had more now!

 

[jocelyn plummer]

My better half says he thinks the future of our oil supply is politically threatened.

 

[Flyfisher]

Quite possibly - gas as well I would guess.

 

[Penners]

My better half says he thinks the future of our oil supply is politically threatened.

Quite possibly - gas as well I would guess.

I'm sure that's true, but I don't see it as any argument for more reliance on electricity, given that electricity is just oil, gas, coal and uranium in another form. I don't think the UK is self-reliant in any of these fuels (unless there's a big resurgence in coal mining).

 

[Flyfisher]

(unless there's a big resurgence in coal mining).

I think this is an inevitability at some point in the future. I seem to recall projections of the UK having enough coal for hundreds of years, although I don't know the basis of the burn rate, which presumably would increase as other energy sources become depleted. Unless renewables really can - and do - fill the gap, I can see no chance of any government allowing the lights to go out while we're sitting on millions of tons of coal.

It would be somewhat ironic if the 'destruction' of the UK coal industry in the 80's turns out to put the UK in a better position regarding energy independence in the future, as well as having allowed the necessary time for new clean-burn and carbon sequestration technologies to be perfected.

 

[Penners]

If you extract the carbon from coal combustion byproducts, can you turn it into coal?

(I'm joking... I think).

 

[skier-hughes]

Nah, it makes those useless diamond thingies.

 

[Lime]

Electric central heating became popular in the 60s because it was a cheaper method of installing "central" heating than any other.
The method used was mainly storage radiators of huge construction (but cheap) fed by electricity for 10 hours at night and a top up of an hour or so around 3pm.
I installed many of them as the electricity boards (who were pushing them very hard) sold the heaters for next to nothing but charged a lot for installation.
My customers used to buy their heaters and I would install them. The electricity companies attempted to prevent people like myself doing this work when the supply cables needed upgrading (they either said it could not be done or wanted a huge amount of money to do it) but they soon changed their minds when my customers threatened to send all the storage radiators back to them.

A similar system still exists but it is only a shadow of it's former self. The charge is only 7 hours and the heaters are not very big so cannot hold anything like the amount the old style storage systems did.

Electric heating of any sort using the national grid will always be more expensive to run (as in the past).

The argument that electricity is a better bet (eco wise) than oil, coal or gas because wind turbines exist is false IMO.
Wind turbines have yet to replace any other form of generation and only act as supplements to the grid supply. We are very short of spare capacity at the moment.
The idea that electric heating or cars are "greener" does not appear to have any realistic support in the real world.
Most electricity is generated by fossil fuels or nuclear energy.
Wind (or any other green form of energy generation) is not thought through by those who think wind is the main solution.
The wind turbines in my area cause massive dissuption for those who are afflicted with them and to have 100s more of them may just be pie in the sky.
They have so much subsidy that they appear to have no real viability for a real green future.

In my "green" future people would live near their work and not need their car so much.
Until that is tackled all other forms of energy saving is so much hot air.

 

[Penners]

Nah, it makes those useless diamond thingies.

Shame. No good for keeping warm, then. Unless diamonds are combustible?

 

[Flyfisher]

If you extract the carbon from coal combustion byproducts, can you turn it into coal?

(I'm joking... I think).

Yes, you can - all (I believe) chemical reactions are reversible. The trouble is the chemical reaction of burning coal is strongly exothermic, i.e. releases large amounts of heat energy, which of course is why we burn the stuff. So, to split the resulting C02 into carbon (coal) and oxygen would require a similar input of energy to make the reaction work. It's a similar issue with splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen. But if you can figure out a way around this then the Nobel prize and riches beyond avarice will be your reward!

 

[MdB]

If you extract the carbon from coal combustion byproducts, can you turn it into coal?

(I'm joking... I think).

Carbon in coal + Oxygen from air -> Carbon Dioxide + Heat

Carbon Dioxide + Energy (from sun) -> Plant matter (Carbon) + Oxygen

Plant matter + time + pressure -> Coal.

Unfortunately getting Carbon from Carbon Dioxide is the tricky bit.

 

[caliwag]

UK coal actively exploring reopening deep mine at Harworth colliery in North Notts.
If predictions are correct, it'll be the biggest deep mine in Europe...up to 40m tonnes.
Mind you that would only keep Drax (which generates 7% of the nation's needs) going for 3 years, if flat out. :shock: