Cubist
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Anyone else having problems starting an old Briggs and Stratton 4 stroke engine using unadulterated E10 petrol?
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worms
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For the mower and strimmer I've been buying premium petrol, which is still E5, so I've not tried E10 yet.Cubist said:
I once had fuel problems in a petrol landrover, which we eventually tracked down to the ethanol content of the fuel in that country. I was getting fuel starvation and erratic running but couldn't find any carburettor problems. It turned out that a gel had formed on the surface of the in-tank pre-filter, which was made of nylon and the assumption was that the ethanol was partially melting the nylon. Dispensing with the pre-filter was enough to get the engine running smoothly again.
I've always assumed that any petrol engine should be able to run on E10 if you can get the fuel to the piston without it reacting with any plastic parts on the way from the tank, so I wonder if there is any on-line info on what parts in the B&S fuel system might need changing to allow it to use E10?
Feltwell
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I hear that E10 doesn't last as long as E5, so if it's been hanging around for a while it might be stale.
That said, my old Briggs & Stratton mower seems to run on any old rubbish. I stuck 15 year old petrol in it once, drained out of a motorbike, and it didn't complain.
My mower usually refuses to start after the winter layup, but whip the spark plug out, give it a warm with a blowtorch and pop it back in again and it always starts OK.
That said, my old Briggs & Stratton mower seems to run on any old rubbish. I stuck 15 year old petrol in it once, drained out of a motorbike, and it didn't complain.
My mower usually refuses to start after the winter layup, but whip the spark plug out, give it a warm with a blowtorch and pop it back in again and it always starts OK.
worms
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Feltwell, I was assuming that Cubist was talking about fresh fuel in the mower, but you are quite right about the risks of the petrol being stale.Feltwell said:
I think ethanol started to be added to petrol in 2008, so it is quite possible that your 15 year old petrol from the motorbike was from the pre-ethanol era, when petrol going off wasn't really a problem.
My understanding is that the ethanol absorbs moisture from the air, effectively leading to a similar problem to having water in your fuel. The more ethanol and the more most the air, the worse the effect. So both E5 and E10 are worse than old-fashioned petrol, with E10 worse than E5. Also a half-full tank has a bigger air/fuel interface, increasing the chances of moisture being absorbed into the fuel. I've heard it said that a half-full tank (or jerry can) of E10 can be useless after 30 days.
That said, I've recently managed to get a couple of petrol vehicles to start that hadn't been fired up for nearly ten years using just the fuel that was in their tanks, so it would seem that at least with E5, the problem of fuel going off isn't necessarily as bad as portrayed.
How old are we talking? My 90s ride-on (4 stroke B&S) runs along quite happily on whatever I throw in it.
My 1948 gunsmith with a Briggs and Stratton ZZ is also remarkably unfussy about what petrol I throw in it, although I do add the "lead replacement additive" to that one.
Generally my start problems have always been traced to fuel flow (lines or carb) rather than ethanol content
My 1948 gunsmith with a Briggs and Stratton ZZ is also remarkably unfussy about what petrol I throw in it, although I do add the "lead replacement additive" to that one.
Generally my start problems have always been traced to fuel flow (lines or carb) rather than ethanol content
CliffordPope
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I think the problems like this often reported may simply be showing that old petrol was more tolerant of general neglect of other things, like ignition leads, contacts, spark plugs, timing, filters, condensation.
I bought a new mower a couple of years ago and had great difficulty starting it. I took it in to the agent who initially said that it was simply that I wasn't pulling the cord hard enough. he showed me a technique where he not only pulled the cord but pushed the mower violently away at the same time. I asked how say an elderly person was supposed to do that, on an engine that was supposedly "easy start". But on examination he agreed that it was simply that the spark plug was not a top quality one, but a cheap substitute. With a proper plug in place it has started easily ever since.
On old mowers I never changed the spark plug. As with old cars, I'd service the plugs by soaking in a jar of petrol, scraping out the encrusted carbon with a special tool, emery-papering the the electrodes etc, setting the gap, and they worked as good as new. They went on working until the electrodes finally corroded away, when I found another slightly better plug after rumaging in my old parts box.
I once had a large quantity of petrol mixed with about 25% diesel (a work colleague's misfueling mistake), which I used up by running in the old mower with a B&S engine. It was a bit smoky, but ran all right once hot. The old fergi tractor was fine on it.
I bought a new mower a couple of years ago and had great difficulty starting it. I took it in to the agent who initially said that it was simply that I wasn't pulling the cord hard enough. he showed me a technique where he not only pulled the cord but pushed the mower violently away at the same time. I asked how say an elderly person was supposed to do that, on an engine that was supposedly "easy start". But on examination he agreed that it was simply that the spark plug was not a top quality one, but a cheap substitute. With a proper plug in place it has started easily ever since.
On old mowers I never changed the spark plug. As with old cars, I'd service the plugs by soaking in a jar of petrol, scraping out the encrusted carbon with a special tool, emery-papering the the electrodes etc, setting the gap, and they worked as good as new. They went on working until the electrodes finally corroded away, when I found another slightly better plug after rumaging in my old parts box.
I once had a large quantity of petrol mixed with about 25% diesel (a work colleague's misfueling mistake), which I used up by running in the old mower with a B&S engine. It was a bit smoky, but ran all right once hot. The old fergi tractor was fine on it.
The farther-in-law lost all the fuel hoses in his mower to ethanol and I had the same with strimmer.
Now I treat all my small engine petrol with a fuel stabilizer, not sure it helps but at least I feel like I am trying to do something.
Cheers,
Richard B.
Now I treat all my small engine petrol with a fuel stabilizer, not sure it helps but at least I feel like I am trying to do something.
Cheers,
Richard B.
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Guys,
Thanks for the replies and input. The engine concerned is a B&S 16hp twin vertical with electric start thats only 10-11 years old and used to power my ride-on brush cutter which was manufactured in Italy, so prone to the odd electrical problem like many of their cars - I've had a few over the years. One such was an apparent low voltage issue affecting the PTO that had me removing the fuel tank to gain access to the various relays and switches mounted underneath it and the wiring running through the chassis/frame. Until this year the machine had been filled with E5 but, as my other kit had quite happily run with E10, I used that after reassembly. Sadly, barring a couple of coughs after squirting some fuel directly down the carbs throat, nothing - not even a hint of a bang.
Before I commit to stripping down the carburettor I've decided to drain all the fuel and re-fill with premium to see if thats an easier fix. And, BTW, I have checked all the other usual suspects - air, fuel delivery, compression, spark all good.
B$%$%^%^!! - still got to find out if my fix for the PTO works, ho hum.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Cheers
Thanks for the replies and input. The engine concerned is a B&S 16hp twin vertical with electric start thats only 10-11 years old and used to power my ride-on brush cutter which was manufactured in Italy, so prone to the odd electrical problem like many of their cars - I've had a few over the years. One such was an apparent low voltage issue affecting the PTO that had me removing the fuel tank to gain access to the various relays and switches mounted underneath it and the wiring running through the chassis/frame. Until this year the machine had been filled with E5 but, as my other kit had quite happily run with E10, I used that after reassembly. Sadly, barring a couple of coughs after squirting some fuel directly down the carbs throat, nothing - not even a hint of a bang.
Before I commit to stripping down the carburettor I've decided to drain all the fuel and re-fill with premium to see if thats an easier fix. And, BTW, I have checked all the other usual suspects - air, fuel delivery, compression, spark all good.
B$%$%^%^!! - still got to find out if my fix for the PTO works, ho hum.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Cheers
E10 petrol can (and will) attack certain types of fuel hoses along with some of the plastic/rubber components inside a carburetor. Newer engines should be OK as ethanol additives have been around fro several years now.
I had to strip a whacker plate than had been left standing for a long while - All the jets and main tube had to be removed, then soaked in carb cleaner. Still had to attack the built up gunk with a fine needle to clear the holes in the jets. Should have replaced the hoses & fuel filter while I had the thing apart. It now needs stripping again and cleaning..
I had to strip a whacker plate than had been left standing for a long while - All the jets and main tube had to be removed, then soaked in carb cleaner. Still had to attack the built up gunk with a fine needle to clear the holes in the jets. Should have replaced the hoses & fuel filter while I had the thing apart. It now needs stripping again and cleaning..
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paulc said:
I swapped out the E10 yesterday and doused the bits of the carb I could get at with carb cleaner. If that does not work then I will today have to dismantle and clean the darn thing. Not a terribly difficult task but its one of those governed engines that has lots of lovely bracketry, delicate linkage pins and fine springs sitting in front of it that have to be removed to get it out and... very carefully put back by this fat fingered spanner wrangler.
Wish me luck.
I have 1970's 3.5HP and a 1990's 8.5HP B&S engines, and both run fine on 10% ethanol.
I can however now see drops of water sitting at the bottom of the metal fuel tank on the 3.5HP, but can't see them in the plastic tank of the 8.5HP. I'm guessing it is condensation, but I never noticed it before the e10, and I'm assuming that at some point the water will get deep enough to get to the fuel pickup and the engine fail to start.
I can however now see drops of water sitting at the bottom of the metal fuel tank on the 3.5HP, but can't see them in the plastic tank of the 8.5HP. I'm guessing it is condensation, but I never noticed it before the e10, and I'm assuming that at some point the water will get deep enough to get to the fuel pickup and the engine fail to start.
worms
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Cubist, if it is one of the B&S plastic carburettors or one with a plastic diaphragm, you would be wise to have a replacement diaphragm kit on hand before you dismantle it. Even a slight softening of the carburettor diaphragm can be enough to mess up the fuel/air mixture.
worms
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For the anoraks amongst us, this video is an intetresting comparison on E10 in small engines and a test of a fuel stabiliser. An earlier video of his shows that you can remove the ethanol from petrol by adding water, letting it settle and then either decanting off the petrol from the top or draining the water/ethanol from the bottom.
This guy has done a lot of good videos over the years and takes a good objective look at things, so I have more trust in his output than I have for the average Youtube click-bait!
This guy has done a lot of good videos over the years and takes a good objective look at things, so I have more trust in his output than I have for the average Youtube click-bait!
Cubist
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Its the same for many others I suppose but I am one of those people who has unconsciously acquired a morning routine. Aside from all the mundane stuff concerning ablutions and dress, mine has always included a review of my new mail, a scan of the news and, and most importantly, the prioritisation and planning of my activities for the balance of the day. Recently, such considerations of my 'day plan' have been trumped by a newly discovered and very urgent task or emergency - the various plumbing failures, separately discussed on this forum, of the last six months or so being prime examples.
Yesterday though, my initial thoughts were on the activities to get my brush-cutter engine started but these were interrupted by a much more pressing need which, fortuitously led to an opportunity for my sub-conscious mind to work on that problem and consider the suggestions of the contributors to this thread. Oddly though, the nature of that interruption consisted of a similar fuelling problem insofar that, shortly before coming to my pc to see what the world had in store, I discovered an alarmingly low level of my favoured tea-bags and I was in great danger of using all of them before the morning had even begun, and certainly insufficient to maintain my mandatory tannin levels through the day. The First Lady is away on business at the moment but its absolutely certain that even if she were here any blandishments of mine, no matter how much pleading may have been involved, would not have persuaded her to make the trip to our nearest convenience store. Faced with this quandary then that essential journey now fell squarely at my own feet and all other possible activities fell by the way-side while I made the 7 mile round trip to ensure my sanity, equilibrium and good manners toward friends and strangers alike were not impaired.
Having achieved that goal, and in light of the very over-cast day here, I decided to cut what grass I could without using my brush-cutter and spent a useful day doing so and out of the heat. While I was about this I remembered that my brush-cutters engine has a fuel cut-off valve. This, as most will know, is designed to prevent fuel reaching the carburettor while certain safety switches are engaged/disengaged and therefore may just be the source of my engine starting problems. Also, and I may just be able to fix the problem without dismantling the carb itself. Sadly that hope soon evaporated when a very simple test proved that the valve was working properly and I would have to strip the beast down. Removing the float bowl I found some heavy corrosion deposits in the base and attached to the base of the tube. After cleaning and some careful prodding through the various orifices with suitably fine wire and liberal/well aimed squirts of carb-cleaner, the re-assembly went surprisingly smoothly and, to my great relief, the engine fired after just two turns of the key!
And now, back to working out why the PRO clutch won't engage! :?
Yesterday though, my initial thoughts were on the activities to get my brush-cutter engine started but these were interrupted by a much more pressing need which, fortuitously led to an opportunity for my sub-conscious mind to work on that problem and consider the suggestions of the contributors to this thread. Oddly though, the nature of that interruption consisted of a similar fuelling problem insofar that, shortly before coming to my pc to see what the world had in store, I discovered an alarmingly low level of my favoured tea-bags and I was in great danger of using all of them before the morning had even begun, and certainly insufficient to maintain my mandatory tannin levels through the day. The First Lady is away on business at the moment but its absolutely certain that even if she were here any blandishments of mine, no matter how much pleading may have been involved, would not have persuaded her to make the trip to our nearest convenience store. Faced with this quandary then that essential journey now fell squarely at my own feet and all other possible activities fell by the way-side while I made the 7 mile round trip to ensure my sanity, equilibrium and good manners toward friends and strangers alike were not impaired.
Having achieved that goal, and in light of the very over-cast day here, I decided to cut what grass I could without using my brush-cutter and spent a useful day doing so and out of the heat. While I was about this I remembered that my brush-cutters engine has a fuel cut-off valve. This, as most will know, is designed to prevent fuel reaching the carburettor while certain safety switches are engaged/disengaged and therefore may just be the source of my engine starting problems. Also, and I may just be able to fix the problem without dismantling the carb itself. Sadly that hope soon evaporated when a very simple test proved that the valve was working properly and I would have to strip the beast down. Removing the float bowl I found some heavy corrosion deposits in the base and attached to the base of the tube. After cleaning and some careful prodding through the various orifices with suitably fine wire and liberal/well aimed squirts of carb-cleaner, the re-assembly went surprisingly smoothly and, to my great relief, the engine fired after just two turns of the key!
And now, back to working out why the PRO clutch won't engage! :?
worms
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Cubist, that sounds like a good result! I wonder if it is worth cleaning out the tank and the fuel line? ...or is it simpler just to take off the float bowl every so often and clean it out there?
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worms said:
Hi Worms,
Funny you should say that. I was idly toying with adding removing the bowl as part of my winter layup preparations but decided it would be too much of a faff. Easier I think to just 'grin and bear it' and fix any problems when they come along.
The tanks on all my kit are plastic so no risk of them rusting internally consequently corrosion problems are limited to the internals of the carb systems. To my mind its only worth flushing the tank and fuel lines if the fuel has been polluted with something that may damage them or the engine components.
Cheers,
Steve
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worms said:
Sorry Worms, I missed this one on plastic carburettors.
All but one of mine are aluminium, albeit that some of the internal seals and diaphragms may be plastic, and I've had few problems with them. The one plastic bodied carb though is fitted to an old Echo brush-cutter - theres a long story involving a good neighbour, lots of whiskey and two defunct brush-cutters I may go into another time. The only problem I've had with the plastic one was the result of my own ''heavy handedness' which destroyed the thread in the body used to secure the pump diaphragm. Fixed that with a shard of nylon cut from some binding tape and its been happily running ever since.
BTW - at first glance the metal bowl on the base of my ride on brush-cutter appeared to be 'spun' aluminium but closer inspection revealed it to be a plated steel and hence the rust.
Cheers,
Steve
worms
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Cubist said:
I think this is where I came in...!
The "something" is the ethanol! It will corrode both steel and aluminium, it will also produce a jelly-like substance in the vicinity of aluminium components, it will melt some plastics and make others brittle. All this gets worse if left for long enough for the ethanol to absorb moisture from the air.Meanwhile my mower started to sound really rough this afternoon - at first I thought the blade had come loose, but unfortunately the noise seems to be in the motor itself...going to have to sleep on that one and inspect it closer in the morning.
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In our three cars... 1990, 1974, 1963, we only use E5.
Even so, I have changed all the fuel hose to Gates Barricade, which is ethanol-proof.
In our mower... 1984, I only use E5.
E10 is not fit for use in an old engine, and anyone using it is laying up trouble for themselves.
Even with E5, I put a stabiliser in the last tank of fuel when laying up the mower over winter.
Ivor
Even so, I have changed all the fuel hose to Gates Barricade, which is ethanol-proof.
In our mower... 1984, I only use E5.
E10 is not fit for use in an old engine, and anyone using it is laying up trouble for themselves.
Even with E5, I put a stabiliser in the last tank of fuel when laying up the mower over winter.
Ivor