biffvernon
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AMc said:
Or live the life of an outlaw. FENSA is one of the sillier inventions of recent times. I would have nothing to do with it.
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Or live the life of an outlaw. FENSA is one of the sillier inventions of recent times. I would have nothing to do with it.
Flyfisher
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Given that the house is listed, the CO might be able to influence the specification of the windows and override the FENSA requirements to an extent. Worth asking anyway.
Hi
I have used slimlite glass. The issue is not the thickness. It is hiding the spacers that hold the two pieces of glass apart. The bit I have on my desk has a 5mm spacer compared to a 10mm minimum in cheap DG units. It means that it can be used with traditional 16mm glazing bar without seeing the spacer. It is heavier so may need more weight. I tend to agree it in situations like this one or in later extensions. Here is a photo
If you have serious money to spend, you can go one stage further. Pilkington Spacia Glass is double glazed but only as thick as normal glass. It has a 0.3mm gap but it is a vacuum which eliminates any conduction and convection. The glass is held apart by micro dots. It has to be custom made to size and is hugely expensive but hopefully it will get cheaper so that it can be used in
Garnett
I have used slimlite glass. The issue is not the thickness. It is hiding the spacers that hold the two pieces of glass apart. The bit I have on my desk has a 5mm spacer compared to a 10mm minimum in cheap DG units. It means that it can be used with traditional 16mm glazing bar without seeing the spacer. It is heavier so may need more weight. I tend to agree it in situations like this one or in later extensions. Here is a photo
If you have serious money to spend, you can go one stage further. Pilkington Spacia Glass is double glazed but only as thick as normal glass. It has a 0.3mm gap but it is a vacuum which eliminates any conduction and convection. The glass is held apart by micro dots. It has to be custom made to size and is hugely expensive but hopefully it will get cheaper so that it can be used in
Garnett
paulb33
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garnett said:
0.3mm? This makes me question my rush to restore. So, what innovations are around the corner that might solve for many of these conservation challenges?
Will the next owners spend £££s pulling out my ££££ 3mm SlimLites.....cursing me, just as I'm cursing the owners of the 90s..?
Interesting philosophical question. Perhaps single glass, thick jumpers and a strong constitution is best...
Paul
plasticpigeon
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You could try single glazing as it will look better and be easier to make, and then put polycarbonate panels on the inside. It is perhaps not elegant, but I am going to experiment with this on my sashes. It is particularly of interest to me as it shouldn't change the weight of the window so hopefully I can still use the old weights. However that is not relevant if you have casements.
paulb33
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One large, double glazed pane beaded on the inside has been suggested. The eye looks right through it. The windows will then have to stay shut, mind..
Paul
It is a real dilemma. The historic solution is already there in many buildings. Fold out wooden shutters and heavy curtains work fabulously.
This is a subject that I disagree with some of my colleagues on. I have a grade I listed abbey only a couple of metres above the high water mark. The one thing you can be certain of is that nobody will ask for listed building consent for sea levels to increase and destroy the building.
Holistically we may need to be more relaxed about energy and historic buildings if we are to avoid their destruction due to climate change in 50 years.
Cue the people that tell me it is not happening!
Garnett
It is a real dilemma. The historic solution is already there in many buildings. Fold out wooden shutters and heavy curtains work fabulously.
This is a subject that I disagree with some of my colleagues on. I have a grade I listed abbey only a couple of metres above the high water mark. The one thing you can be certain of is that nobody will ask for listed building consent for sea levels to increase and destroy the building.
Holistically we may need to be more relaxed about energy and historic buildings if we are to avoid their destruction due to climate change in 50 years.
Cue the people that tell me it is not happening!
Garnett
paulb33
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garnett said:
You read my mind, as I was just pining after the shutters in my previous Georgian townhouse. The windows in my 1901 property are much wider, making shutters impossible. In hindsight, it seems odd that shutters went out of fashion. Heat loss wasn't considered as important as light, in Edwardian times...? Cheaper glass encouraged wider windows?
Paul
Keithj
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We just spent lots removing polycarbonate from a church and fitting proper DG. I wouldn't go near the stuff again!
We have one of the few Tudor houses with "original" DG. I think it was another case of squeaking in just before it was listed. We had a long discussion with the CO about the repairs and what we would use. Krypton-filled was prohibitively expensive. There were some other inert options (Argon, I think) that were not so scary pricewise. In the end, we used the same size as was already there (something like 4-16-4) where replacement was needed, and they don't look bad. We used the same in the extension. In the 12 months since then, only one out of a couple of hundred units has leaked.
The new windows were made, bespoke, by a local joiner. He was happy to use whatever wood we were prepared to pay for. I wouldn't expect the search for a similar craftsman to be too difficult. I was impressed that he wouldn't make the new windows for the extension to the architect's dimensions. He came and measured the holes!
We have one of the few Tudor houses with "original" DG. I think it was another case of squeaking in just before it was listed. We had a long discussion with the CO about the repairs and what we would use. Krypton-filled was prohibitively expensive. There were some other inert options (Argon, I think) that were not so scary pricewise. In the end, we used the same size as was already there (something like 4-16-4) where replacement was needed, and they don't look bad. We used the same in the extension. In the 12 months since then, only one out of a couple of hundred units has leaked.
The new windows were made, bespoke, by a local joiner. He was happy to use whatever wood we were prepared to pay for. I wouldn't expect the search for a similar craftsman to be too difficult. I was impressed that he wouldn't make the new windows for the extension to the architect's dimensions. He came and measured the holes!
biffvernon
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Keithj said:
Like it. I only used architects' numbers in new build when my work preceded that of the brickie's.
The trouble with "use whatever wood we were prepared to pay for", most joiners, who aren't specialising in oak work, won't have their own stock of suitably air dried oak so they will have to buy the particular timber to be used from somewhere else. That will then be very expensive and there won't be the opportunity to choose a particular piece of wood for a particular component from a large stock of, what is by nature, a variable timber. I think this is much of what makes it so hard to find a joiner who is prepared to use oak. You either have to use a lot of it or none.
paulb33
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I'm trying to get a price on Pilkington Spacia glass vaccuum units. Perhaps the current "ideal" solution from a form and function perspective. 6mm thick and Architectural Product of the Year. Its been used for over ten years in Japan...
But, Pilkington won't give me a price....and, my local suppliers won't touch it (saying bad things about Pilkington customer service....). Pilkington website says: "The price (£) is on application with a minimum area charge 0.3m² per pane. For orders above 4m², and as an approximate guide the cost will fall between £200 -£350m² depending upon volume, sizes and quantities."
I need three hundred small units, about 300mm x 350mm in size. So, I probably don't want (or need) to know the estimate.... :lol: Anyone good with maths? Will my windows be worth more than the rest of the house?
Perhaps the answer is to install best quality oak frames, with single glass panes. Then, when technology catches up and price falls (Pilkington Spacia, or ?), I'll remove the single glass panes (over time?) and putty Spacia glass in? Say, gift myself 5 units each Christmas and Birthday...? I'll be warm by 72....
Paul
But, Pilkington won't give me a price....and, my local suppliers won't touch it (saying bad things about Pilkington customer service....). Pilkington website says: "The price (£) is on application with a minimum area charge 0.3m² per pane. For orders above 4m², and as an approximate guide the cost will fall between £200 -£350m² depending upon volume, sizes and quantities."
I need three hundred small units, about 300mm x 350mm in size. So, I probably don't want (or need) to know the estimate.... :lol: Anyone good with maths? Will my windows be worth more than the rest of the house?
Perhaps the answer is to install best quality oak frames, with single glass panes. Then, when technology catches up and price falls (Pilkington Spacia, or ?), I'll remove the single glass panes (over time?) and putty Spacia glass in? Say, gift myself 5 units each Christmas and Birthday...? I'll be warm by 72....
Paul
Hi
I did say it wasn't cheap!
I think that this would at the moment, be used in very special cases. A grade I / II* listed buidding at the end of a new runway or high spead rail link perhaps. The vaccum should dramaticaly cut noise. As they say - in space, nobody can hear you scream!
I suspect that in Japan, they use it for large areas. It can't be cut so the sealing of the unit is so expensive with small panes that make it impractical.
Good hunting!
Garnett
I did say it wasn't cheap!
I think that this would at the moment, be used in very special cases. A grade I / II* listed buidding at the end of a new runway or high spead rail link perhaps. The vaccum should dramaticaly cut noise. As they say - in space, nobody can hear you scream!
I suspect that in Japan, they use it for large areas. It can't be cut so the sealing of the unit is so expensive with small panes that make it impractical.
Good hunting!
Garnett
I wouldn't be surprised if it was useless in cutting noise.garnett said:
The vacuum won't conduct sound but it will pull both panes together tightly with just the micro spacers holding them apart. This will give a good mechanical transfer from one pane to the other and hence sound transfer.
plasticpigeon
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Hello Paul
Sorry to be pedantic but I really don't think you can be after panes of 300mm^2 as that would be a pane of approximately 17mm x 17mm or similar. Is it perhaps 300cm^2 that you need? That would be only 0.03m^3 so you would effectively be paying the same per pane as for one 10 times the area. I think your solution of getting top quality frames and seeing if this technology catches up is a good one.
Sorry to be pedantic but I really don't think you can be after panes of 300mm^2 as that would be a pane of approximately 17mm x 17mm or similar. Is it perhaps 300cm^2 that you need? That would be only 0.03m^3 so you would effectively be paying the same per pane as for one 10 times the area. I think your solution of getting top quality frames and seeing if this technology catches up is a good one.
paulb33
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Sorry: just edited it. I need three hundred units, approximately 300mm x 350mm in size. :roll:
paulb33
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£100k, by my reckoning...
Flyfisher
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Could be a long time before you recoup that little lot through reduced heating bills. :shock: :lol:
paulb33
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100 years?
eezageeza
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Not £100k, only £19800 - £31,500 isn't it?
paulb33
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eezageeza said:
Someone check my maths. I'd be delighted if it was the case. Typing this as I pack for long weekend in deepest, wildest west-Wales. Haven't got the calculator out. Is it "only" £20-30k? I've made it seem a "bargain". 8)