Bus Shelter in front of my Grade II Listed House

[jmbarker]

Dear all,

My predicament is explained in the letter written to the person responsible for such matters at the council - no response.

Any advice on whether my thoughts are correct, will be welcomed.

____________________________________________________________


Dear Mr [ ],

I am e-mailing you in relation to the Building, which my family and I moved into in March 2006. We purchased the Building from Mr [ ], a person I suspect that my have entered into correspondence with you similar terms.

If you aren't already aware, the Building is Grade II listed.

Immediately in front of the Building (approximately 0.25 metres from its curtilage) is a bus stop/shelter ("Bus Shelter"). This Bus Shelter serves amongst other bus services, the number [ ] operated by First.

I understand from the previous owner that the Bus Shelter was moved immediately in front of the Building in the last couple of years.

Was appropriate planning permission and listed building consent obtained to erect this Bus Shelter, given its proximity and line of sight to a Grade II listed property?

I ask this question with reference to the document headed 'Planning Services, Listed Buildings' available for download from http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/business/planning/advicenotes/ListedBuildings.pdf. The text under 'Heading 8' provides that:

- "Setting may be affected by proposals for free-standing buildings within garden ground, alterations to walls or approaches, sight lines to or from a listed building";

- "In these instances, permission may be required";

- "Any proposal that will adversely affect the setting of a listed building will not be granted";

- "Where a listed building forms an important visual element in the street, the Council would regard any development in the street as being within the setting of the building".

There can be no doubt that the Building does form an important visual element of the locality. It is one of the oldest buildings in the area (built circa 1727) in a central location throughout which most [ ] residents will see and pass, particularly those attending the village store.

Given the proximity of the Bus Stop from the Property (0.25m from its curtilage), there can be no doubt that this erection is within the setting of the the Building. In addition and using language which is applied in so many decision notices applicable to the the [ ] area, the Bus Shelter, 'has an unsympathetic and incongruous form, which detracts unduly from the Building having an adverse effect upon its visual amenity'.

It may be worth your attending the location, as you will see the graffiti which is scratched into the Shelter as well as the rubbish left by school children. This is not insignificant and again impacts on the visual elements of the Property, as do the single and double decker busses which park at the Bus Shelter daily.

end.....

 

[Penners]

Who did you send the letter to? You might have more success at getting attention if you make an appointment to go and see a Conservation Officer.

 

[biffvernon]

you will see the graffiti which is scratched into the Shelter as well as the rubbish left by school children. This is not insignificant and again impacts on the visual elements of the Property, as do the single and double decker busses which park at the Bus Shelter daily.

Your arguement may be weakened by the last paragraph as it suggests that what you don't like is children. The busses will be regarded a temporary structure even if they do wait an uncommonly long time at your bus stop.
Perhaps you should suggest a more appropriate design of shelter; cob, half timbered, pantiles, thatch?
Thatched? Yes really. Here are a couple of examples:

 

[Moo]

Try this approach :


Dear XXXXXXX,

On [date] I wrote to you concerning [subject], but have not yet received a reply.
In case the letter has been lost/mislaid in transit, I am sending you a copy.

Yours sincerely etc. etc.



This can be repeated as often as required, each time enclosing a copy of the entire correspondence to date. A really tardy official could end up opening a veritable parcel. However, we have found that one reminder usually suffices, and have never had to send more than two.

 

[biffvernon]

Or you could make something of the bus shelter like Bobby Macauly did.

 

[middi]

Those pics biff posted will encourage every P/P owner and apply to the council ( highway dpt.) to have one of these shelters to be built outside their home.

The land the bus shelters are built on is controlled by highways dpt, and when they want to put a new bus shelter up they just do it.

They should exercise " best practice" and inform parish councils as to what they intend to do. More so in rural aerea.

This" best practice" is usually always applied.

Your parish Clerk should have all the information as to what bus shelter is suitable and where located. They would have had their own little consultation about this and any objections raised at the parish council meeting.


The town or district council will just shrug their shoulders and wonder what the all the fuss is about.

 

[jmbarker]

Dear all,

Thank you for your replies, I especially like the example shelters.

In terms of the decision making process, I understand that "Metro", the people responsible for the busses, unilaterally decided to place the bus stop there. I assume that they did this in conjunction with the Highways Dept, and was probably totally legitimate.

What I am trying to establish is to what extent the legislation relating to Listed Buildings impacts/overrides on these kinds of decisions. My thinking is that the Highways Dept probably didnt consult the conservation dept in this instance - who I imagine must have something to say about it.

Would love to post a picture but dont know how - new to this

By the way, the Paris Council supported the previous occupants objections, but for one reason or another (perhaps lack of knowledge) the objection was never persued.

John

 

[biffvernon]

Would love to post a picture but dont know how

You have to put your picture on the Internet somewhere else so that it has it's own URL. I use Photobucket.com but there are several such free hosting services. Then you write the picture's URL on this message board in between the

tags. It just apears then.

 

[middi]

It all depends on what grounds rhe parish council voiced their objections.

The fact that it should not be placed in front of someone,s house on the highway does not apply. If a shelter is required it will be placed where is most appropriate to serve the comunity.

If the objection was raised on the type of shelter to be erected as being inappropriate on the aesthetic impact of the aerea and with the backing of your local CO perhaps it would have made a difference

If you have a lot of patience and time and want to persue a retrospective objection by demonstrating negligence on their part you can.

As Penners said, first of all get in touch with you CO and listen to what his comments are, If he/she is willing to support the fact that the shelter is inappropriate then digg up as much information as you can and make a case to have it changed.

Good luck, ( you will need it !! )

 

[jmbarker]

Once again, thank you for your interest and comments. I am most definitley going to be taking this up with the conservation officer.

Although I am a solicitor, my knowledge and experience of the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990 is not great.

It is over 4 years ago that the bus stop was sited (I moved in 3 months ago - obviously with the full knowledge that it exists and probably cant be moved). I appreciate that this will be a red tape knightmare and that I have to deal with the fact that the Highways Dept can probably do what they want to serve the needs of the community.

However, I am keen to know whether or not people have experience of being told that they require listed building consent/ pp for a development if such developement is in the line of site of a listed building.

It seems ridiculous that the Bus company can plonk a bus shelter in front of a house, yet I wouldnt be permitted to have a bus shelter shaped window (you never know, somebody might want one!)

 

[jmbarker]

Here is a picture of my house (the one on the left with the extension)

They have painted it brown at least, which is what Metro do in conservation areas - it has been red for 3.5 years and was painted just before I moved in.

 

[Moo]

I may well have missed something in this thread, but having seen the photograph, I really can't see what all the fuss is about.

Your initial description didn't mention the fact that the shelter was separated from the house by a strip of garden and a substantial stone wall. I had assumed that it butted right up against the wall of the house.

I think it might help your case if you were to suggest a more appropriate place to which the council could move the shelter.

 

[Penners]

They have painted it brown at least, which is what Metro do in conservation areas

What a thoughtful and imaginative contribution to the visual heritage of a conservation area. Brown bus shelters instead of red. I wonder which expensive think-tank came up with that one. :roll:

 

[biffvernon]

The bus shelter seems to match the windows of that listed house. :wink:

 

[jmbarker]

Moo,

The wall is listed also as it falls within the curtilage of the property. The wall belongs to me. The Shelter abuts the house also. The house to the right of the shelter is mine also - you can see the back of the shelter abutting part of the house.

 

[Moo]

Yes, I can see all that, but I still can't see why you consider it such a catastrophe. All of us who live in towns or cities, especially on a bus route, have to put up with some manifestations of modern living.
Now, if they'd put the shelter a bit further along, where the house wall is right on the pavement, I could understand your irritation. Or perhaps you'd be less unhappy if they were to leave the bus-stop where it is but just do away with the shelter?

Is there somewhere else nearby where they could have put the shelter?

 

[biffvernon]

Just wait till you reach the age when you trade in your driving licence for a bus pass. Then you'll be grateful

 

[jmbarker]

Moo,

All I want them to do is remove the shelter, and put up a bus stop sign - on a pole or something.

 

[biffvernon]

And then offer waiting passengers an umbrella.

Rain? Anyone remember it?

Seriously though, in the grand scheme of things, I can't see any Conservation Officer looking at that bus shelter in front of that listed building and concluding that there was an issue worthy of much attention.

 

[Moo]

"I moved in 3 months ago - obviously with the full knowledge that it exists and probably cant be moved."




I'm sorry, but I just can't follow your line of reasoning. It brings to mind the people who buy a country cottage and then complain about the noisy livestock or the smell from the pigs at the end of the garden.