Boilers

[LadyArowana]

I don't know if this helps at all but we had to replace the boiler last year and total cost was £3,900. Oil fired ones might be significantly more than gas though. Ours was a Worcester Greenstar, for a 4 bed townhouse. They put it back into the same space that the old one had been removed from and power flushed the system. I haven't seen it as we have tenants. In fact that was why we replaced the boiler, because there was a problem with the gas cert. When I initially did some work there to get it ready to rent out I was issued with a safety cert by a qualified person. The next year a different company did it and noticed that the boiler was flue sharing with the Aga. Since the boiler was old anyways the most practical solution seemed to be to replace it. If it had been for us I really wouldn't have bothered until the old one broke, but there was no question under the circumstances.

 

[Keith Bowman]

We had our 40 year old oil boiler replaced by a modern Bosch-Worcester one, in a different place with re-routed pipework, new flue outlet through the wall, new distillate drain outlet, new pump and new controller plus new hot water cylinder 6 years ago by our local plumber. The total cost was a little over £2,000. Obviously it would be more now but not that much more. I think you need a second quote!

 

[kaz]

Many thanks for the information... I have arranged for more quotes next week, but am worried about the house becoming cold and damp as time goes by. Hypothetically, if a tenant has caused the damage by running the system when oil tank was dry, would I be able to claim on my insurance? I'm guessing not. I'm just feeling the pinch... the entire heating system was only installed in 1999 and serviced annually. Before then, the house relied on open fires for heat.

 

[Lime]

From the quote

A competent electrician to the Institute of Electrical Engineering standards including and relevant supplementary earth bonding but not including any main earth bonding will carry out all electrical work.

To comply with the regulations the Main Earth Terminal (MET) must be shown to be electrically satisfactory and that the correct sized bonding is in place.
If the MET is not satisfactory and/or bonding incorrect/not present that will be an added expense.
The work cannot be signed off otherwise.

Seems to me you are being ripped off.

 

[Lime]

I probably shoudn't comment about that as I'm certainly no boiler expert, but I would be questioning whether a jammed fan/motor is really a good reason for having to buy and fit a brand new boiler.

Can the fan/motor really not be removed in some way? Even if they are destroyed in the process, a new fan/motor must surely be a lot cheaper than a completely new boiler.

Sorry for not being more helpful, but I would be seeking a second opinion.

Yes it is nonsense.
They do not want to repair the boiler full stop.... then offer an outrageous quote.

Their business model is based on there is one born every minute.

 

[Flyfisher]

Hypothetically, if a tenant has caused the damage by running the system when oil tank was dry, would I be able to claim on my insurance? I'm guessing not.

I'd be amazed if any applicance could actually be damaged by letting the oil run dry. I can imagine such a thing might cause re-starting difficulties but no actual damage. After all, when first installed, all oil boilers are 'dry' so there must be an established procedure to get them going again.

We used to have an old oil-fired Rayburn that once ran dry and it needed a bit of faffing around to restart it, but it did eventually and there was no damage. I can't remember the precise details but it basically involved clearing the airlock in the oil pipe from the tank.

These sort of circumstances are immensely frustrating and people feel a time pressure to get them fixed, which opens them up to things like replacement boilers when a simple repair may be all that's necessary. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to find the right sort of "old boy" plumber with a lifetime of experience and who can actually fix things rather than just replace everything in sight at vast expense. Such people are worth their weight in gold!

 

[worms]

Yes it is nonsense.
They do not want to repair the boiler full stop.... then offer an outrageous quote.

Their business model is based on there is one born every minute.

Sounds like it! If the problem is the boiler...why does the circulation pump need replacing?

 

[Lime]

I'd be amazed if any applicance could actually be damaged by letting the oil run dry. I can imagine such a thing might cause re-starting difficulties but no actual damage. After all, when first installed, all oil boilers are 'dry' so there must be an established procedure to get them going again.
.......

Precisely!

It is much more likely that any substantial damage (if it has been done at all) occurred when the "inspection" was carried out in a desperate attempt to find something obvious that had failed.
In my time I have seen much damage carried out by unskilled people posing at skilled because they can use a screw driver, talk the talk and possess qualifications.
Gas Safe and similar schemes does not mean they are skilled and qualified to fault-find and disassemble a boiler without further training from the manufacturer.

 

[skier-hughes]

Only problem I can see from running the oil tank dry is blockages caused by silt at bottom of tank getting into the pipeline or even into jets or whatever, a good clean would sort this.

 

[eezageeza]

We let our boiler run dry a few years ago; it required a plumber to bleed the feed line once we'd refilled the tank, but it was a five minute job, and did no damage at all.

 

[kaz]

Thank you for the replies. Hopefully more quotes (Tuesday) will help to shed some light on the problem.

 

[AMc]

Back when we had oil it ran dry more than once. All it needed was repeated starting attempts to pump through the 20m long line and it fired up again.
I would hope that all oil boilers were designed to be able to run dry without damage. Likewise the fuel line from the tank isn't at the very bottom of the tank - I assume to discourage sludge getting to the supply.

I flogged our 10 year old boiler on ebay for about £400 - I was expected scrap value or someone who needed spares - now I understand why the bloke was intending to have it fitted!

 

[DJH]

I'm not sure if it's safe to assume that if the oil supply to a pressure jet boiler is interrupted that no damage could occur to the pump and fan. If, for example, the photo electric light has become dirty, which can happen through a number of reasons, poor servicing perhaps or a bad down draft and can't see a flame the boiler will run for some time before lockout and the natural reaction, along with no oil supply is to press the lockout switch more than once!!

The old style metal oil tanks had to have a fall away from the outlet to prevent a build up of sludge which could be rust from the inside of the tank or even water from condensation which if that's happening will exacerbate the rust.

The service engineer should open the sludge or drain valve each time the boiler is services to ensure any build up in the tank is drained off.

It would be interesting to know the configuration of the particular system you have Kaz. I suspect from the quote that you have a gravity hot water primary system with pumped central heating?

 

[kaz]

Lol... ask me a medical question and I think I might have a better chance of answering... alas I know zilch about boilers!

The existing large boiler (?Pottermans) has never presented me with any problems. I had it serviced annually. From memory I had it on 'constant' for hot water and used the timer for winter heating. The boiler was housed in a cupboard on an inside wall, next to a large chimney breast, in the kitchen on the ground floor. Upstairs I had an airing cupboard in the bathroom, directly above the boiler. I never touched anything in the airing cupboard with the lagged cylinder. I know an extra pump was put into the airing cupboard when I converted a downstairs space into a shower room and this was to give good pressure to the shower. In the kitchen I had one of those remote thingies that told me the level of oil left in the tank, so I was always on top of that and left that at the house for the tenants to use. The boiler was serviced last year whilst the tenants were there... I can't imagine what has gone wrong. I was expecting at least 25 years of life from the boiler.

Someone is coming tomorrow evening to do a quote and another chap on Thursday.

 

[DJH]

I think you might mean Potterton as the make. They are a well respected manufacturer of heating appliances and I wouldn't expect them to leak. Just thinking outside the box I wonder if you are being told that the boiler was run dry because there was no water in it. This is not an uncommon occurrence with gravity fed primary heating systems. What can happen is that after a while the level of water in the header tank in the roof that feeds the system can need topping up via the ball, or float valve which is connected to the water main, to replace water that is lost through evaporation (especially if there is no lid on it). Water can also be lost through say weeping radiator valves or other plumbing joints and, if there is any corrosion in the system, if there is no inhibitor in it, from bleeding the air/gas from the radiators which in turn draws water from this tank.

While all this may be going on below, the ball/float valve is seldom in use especially when the system is new and as hot water from the expansion of water up the feed pipe raises the level of water in the header tank, the float is pushed up hard on the valve and along with the usual limescale that forms on it, it becomes stuck in the closed position and can't make up the level of water required to let the system work properly.

The boiler will then overheat and exacerbate the situation by boiling off more water etc etc etc until something splits!!!! Modern heating appliances invariably have overrun thermostats to shut down when the temperature rises to an unsafe level.

It might be worth your while getting someone to check the header tank, just in case.

All these things are not unusual and I can only give you the benefit of my experience from 'back in the day'.

 

[kaz]

Because I want to keep the boiler were it is, I hoped that as a listed property there may be some kind of exemption regarding having to move it to an external wall to meet the new requirements. Anyway, had a worrying discussion with the local council today... they told me I could NOT move it without planning permission and I would have to pay to apply for this and it will take a least 6 weeks to make a decision. This is horrid... regulations say I must move it and regulations say I cannot move it without permission!

A guy went round to look at the boiler this evening and will give a quote over the next couple of days. He knows I am wanting to keep it where it is if possible. If it had to be moved they would need to take up floor boards upstairs. A couple of years ago I had a specialist survey done of the house and when he lifted a few upstairs floor boards, there where what he called 'coffin boards' underneath... so don't think it's going to be an easy job.

 

[Flyfisher]

Anyway, had a worrying discussion with the local council today... they told me I could NOT move it without planning permission and I would have to pay to apply for this and it will take a least 6 weeks to make a decision.

Did they explain the reasons in detail? I'd be surprised if 'planning' permission was required, though I can see that listed building consent might be required if the alterations are significant. Building a small outside boiler housing would probably qualify for needing LBC but I'd be surprised if it needed planning permission as it would be a very small addition and would surely be allowed under permitted development. This might seem pedantic but LBC is free whereas planning permission attracts a fee (in our area at least). Was your council discussion with the conservation officer?

I'd be surprised if being listed is a good reason for new boiler not to have to meet current regulations, particularly anything to do with flues and other safety matters.

All very frustrating though when you only want to have a boiler repaired!

 

[worms]

I would imagine that it is not Planning Permission (or LBC) that is required, but a Building Warrant, which has a similar application procedure and usually done through the Planning Department. I thought central heating could be signed off by a registered engineer in the same way as installing a wood-burning stove or re-wiring, but perhaps not.

 

[kaz]

Thank you for all the replies to my posts... they have really helped.

The council hasn't really been that helpful... I started with the department that deals with listed buildings. They said that I should keep a boiler on the existing site and were unaware of any regulations which requires any new boilers to be moved to an external wall. They asked me to contact a different council in Essex to speak to someone more expert, which I did. He wasn't aware of the new regulations either. So I contacted my local council again and asked what I should do now... that's when they told me that if it had to be moved I would need to speak to the building control department and apply for planning permission.

Having searched the internet loads, it looks as though all new boilers have to be signed off by an OFTEC registered person and they are the ones who have to ensure it has been placed on an external wall. I am waiting to see what the quotes produce this week.

 

[tobydog]

Kaz - I apologise in advance if I've got this wrong, however, isn't the real issue that the flue has to be on an outside wall and not necessarily the boiler?. You say the boiler currently vents to a chimney which I'm assuming is internal.

Our boiler is new and in a new extension but it backs onto an inside wall. The flue, after about 3 or 4 turns and 2 metres, reaches an outside wall. I know that boilers flues are rated for the maximum length and each turn (45 or 90 degress) equates to a reduction in the maximum length. Our maximum is 6m but due to the various turns, the 2 metres equates to about 4.5 metres which is still within the threshold. Could you not keep the new boiler in the same place and play around with the flue within the boilers flue parameters?