Penners
Member
- Messages
- 17,294
- Location
- Suffolk, England
Don't let yourself be dazzled. Lindyboo. Subtract his twenty sanders from the total, and the rest are worth about £4.50! :wink:
- Thread starter Lindyboo
- Start date
I'm a weekend DIYer so I don't use my tools anywhere near as much as the professionals. This means I don't need (ok, can't justify) the good stuff. I thought I would list all the power tools I've currently got, as much to see myself how much it all adds up to. (Prices are just what I can remember / guess)
Mains power drill #1 - £40 10 years old - Worn out, I took it to bits to find out why and it turned out not to have any bearings, the main shaft just rotated in the plastic housing.
Mains power drill #2 - £30 600W 5 years old - Works fine though the hand tighten chuck is useless.
Mains power drill #3 - £25 Black and Decker 750W - 1 year old. Still going strong though I did get smoke out of it using it to mix lime mortar (not a clever idea - should have used a geared SDS)
Battery drill / driver - £25 - 2 years old - Very good buy, battery lasts well and seems to be quite powerful.
Angle grinder - £30 Bosch - 2 years old - Cut up my old caravan chassis without problem
Jigsaw - £20 - 10 years old - Its on its way out and cuts at an angle but has lasted well
Mitre saw - £40 - 2 years old - Useful for chopping up 2 x 4
Circular saw - £35 - 2 years old - Probably my only really bad buy as the guides are made of such thin material that they are bent all over the place. It gets used a lot so I may treat myself to a more expensive one at some stage.
Wall chaser - £45 - 2 years old - A good example of a tool that you get for a specific job and then never use again. Very glad I got it though as it works wonderfully.
Detail sander - £10 - 2 years old - Useful for the little jobs
Wall paper stripper - £30 - 1 year old - Great for removing the plaster from the walls....
Router - £35 - 2 years old - Scares me silly (especially when on the router table (£25)) but very useful for many woodworking jobs.
(Chainsaw - £40 - Black and Decker - Not really a DIY tool but I had to include it as I got it for Christmas and used it for the first time today <yellow smiley face with big grin>)
I've been thinking about getting an SDS drill but haven't found what I want yet at a sensible price and my mate lent me his (£25 I believe) so that's on the back burner.
Total (not including Chainsaw) £365 over a 10 year period which I think is very reasonable and the only bad buy was the circular saw. Sure my tools won't last 5 minutes if I started using them every day but I do generally have the right tool even if it is a cheap one.
Mains power drill #1 - £40 10 years old - Worn out, I took it to bits to find out why and it turned out not to have any bearings, the main shaft just rotated in the plastic housing.
Mains power drill #2 - £30 600W 5 years old - Works fine though the hand tighten chuck is useless.
Mains power drill #3 - £25 Black and Decker 750W - 1 year old. Still going strong though I did get smoke out of it using it to mix lime mortar (not a clever idea - should have used a geared SDS)
Battery drill / driver - £25 - 2 years old - Very good buy, battery lasts well and seems to be quite powerful.
Angle grinder - £30 Bosch - 2 years old - Cut up my old caravan chassis without problem
Jigsaw - £20 - 10 years old - Its on its way out and cuts at an angle but has lasted well
Mitre saw - £40 - 2 years old - Useful for chopping up 2 x 4
Circular saw - £35 - 2 years old - Probably my only really bad buy as the guides are made of such thin material that they are bent all over the place. It gets used a lot so I may treat myself to a more expensive one at some stage.
Wall chaser - £45 - 2 years old - A good example of a tool that you get for a specific job and then never use again. Very glad I got it though as it works wonderfully.
Detail sander - £10 - 2 years old - Useful for the little jobs
Wall paper stripper - £30 - 1 year old - Great for removing the plaster from the walls....
Router - £35 - 2 years old - Scares me silly (especially when on the router table (£25)) but very useful for many woodworking jobs.
(Chainsaw - £40 - Black and Decker - Not really a DIY tool but I had to include it as I got it for Christmas and used it for the first time today <yellow smiley face with big grin>)
I've been thinking about getting an SDS drill but haven't found what I want yet at a sensible price and my mate lent me his (£25 I believe) so that's on the back burner.
Total (not including Chainsaw) £365 over a 10 year period which I think is very reasonable and the only bad buy was the circular saw. Sure my tools won't last 5 minutes if I started using them every day but I do generally have the right tool even if it is a cheap one.
Penners
Member
- Messages
- 17,294
- Location
- Suffolk, England
Typical. You lend someone your SDS drill and they go and put it on the back burner.MdB said:
People just can't be trusted to look after things.
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,202
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
I think that's an important point. While I think we'd all agree that, broadly, the more spent on a tool the better the quality will be - but what does 'quality' actually mean in this respect?MdB said:
I'm sure the more expensive tool will be better built and therefore last longer, but will it actually do a better job? Will a £200 circular saw make a 'better' cut than a £20 one, or will it simply last longer? (within the same range of cutting capacities, of course).
One thing I like about the Axminster catalogue is that they give a classification for their power tools along the lines of :
Light DIY
Heavy DIY
Light trade
Trade
Continuous use
Production
(I don't have a catalogue to hand, but that's the gist, and they give a detailed description of each definition).
This is very helpful in judging the appropriate build quality for the demands you're likely to make on a tool.
I try to buy in the Light Trade or Trade categories.
Yes, it will make a better cut compared to my cheap one, it really was too cheap but I think it was my only bad buy. (It worked great in cutting my shed in half though)Flyfisher said:
I did hear from a builder mate of mine that some builders just use the cheap tools now and just throw them away when they break. Its cheaper for them to get through 3 or 4 cheap tools than to get one expensive one.
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,202
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
In what way was the cut 'better'? Smoother finish? Straighter?
I've got a fairly cheap sawbench that has more than earned its keep during my roof repairs. But it quickly started to make pretty rough cuts so I was thinking of buying a better one until I noticed that two of the teeth on the disc had broken. I bought a half-decent replacement disc and it's been working fine ever since.
Regarding pros using cheap tools as disposable items, another reason I've heard is that tools have a habit of 'walking' on big sites with lots of different firms and trades working at the same time so 'disposable' tools are somewhat better - less likely to 'walk' in the first place and cheaper to replace if they do.
I've got a fairly cheap sawbench that has more than earned its keep during my roof repairs. But it quickly started to make pretty rough cuts so I was thinking of buying a better one until I noticed that two of the teeth on the disc had broken. I bought a half-decent replacement disc and it's been working fine ever since.
Regarding pros using cheap tools as disposable items, another reason I've heard is that tools have a habit of 'walking' on big sites with lots of different firms and trades working at the same time so 'disposable' tools are somewhat better - less likely to 'walk' in the first place and cheaper to replace if they do.
Penners
Member
- Messages
- 17,294
- Location
- Suffolk, England
I don't think you can be unequivocal about that.MdB said:
In my experience, a brand new cheap tool will generally make as good a job of cutting/drilling/planing/etc as an expensive one.
The difference starts to become apparent when the tool has been in use for a while. A cheap tool's bearings (if any) will have worn rapidly, its shaft may have become misaligned, its battery won't hold much of a charge.... all that sort of thing. Whereas a good tool will give you optimum performace for much longer.
Broadly the old adage "you get what you pay for" holds true. The more you've paid for the tool, the longer its reliable service life will be.
But, as others have observed, if you're only going to use your drill half-a-dozen times a year, it's probably not worth shelling out for an exensive one. A cheapo will do you fine.
Toby Newell
Member
- Messages
- 1,635
- Location
- Surrey
Yes. You took me too literally, that is why i put the NO in capital letters. Higher voltage is NO indication of higher output power as a cheap 18v drill for example may not be able to drill as large a hole as a more expensive 15.6V etc. The term absolutely was exaggeration and technically incorrect! you guys...
Of course (logically) all things being equal a higher voltage (input power) tool of the same make or comparable quality will give more output power.
As regards quality of work and reliability/longevity then undoubtedly the best tools offer an increase in both. Try a cheap Stanley plane, then go try a Lie-Nielsen. Not only will the more expensive plane last longer (several lifetimes infact) but it will cut smoother, be easier to set up and use and feel much nicer (be more pleasurable) to use. Ask Nigel Watts!
Power tools are exactly the same. You can buy a circular saw for £9.99. One of mine costs £450. Both ultimately cut wood.
The cheap one will have a rubbish blade that will have a thick kerf, may not run true giving an uneven line or even larger kerf and will blunt quickly leaving scorch marks on the wood, the motor will be noisy and the tool will vibrate and dust will be everywhere, you will not be able to cut perfectly straight, set the depth of plunge (it probably won't plunge!)
My one connects to a dust extractor, has a saw blade that runs true, has a thin kerf, stays sharp (and costs several times the cheap saw!) is quieter, has less vibration, cuts smoother, is nicer to use, comes with a guide rail so I can rip 1/4 inch off a board in a straight line, has millimetre adjustable plunge action and kick stop so I can cut boards off joists without damaging the adjacent ones in a perfectly straight line, has a three year guarantee, comes in a modular interlockable tool box and a removable electrical cable and quick release saw blade mechanism. (Phew)
Whether you require all these extra features is another matter. Value for money the cheap tools are so ridiculously cheap that most people cannot justify the extra outlay. From a moral point of view we all know battery chickens, battery laid eggs are bad and probably most ppl on here buy free range. Some probably even buy free trade coffee... Even fewer will buy more expensive "free trade cotton" clothes. Very, very few if any of you are going to look at a £9.99 drill and go "Jesus how do they do that and pay these guys properley and is it good for the environment to have such a complicated machine made so throwaway?" But there you go. Basically a top of the range power tool will generally offer much better ease of use, enjoyment of ownership and longevity, mostly, but not always, will it offer increased efficiencey and do a better job. A drill is just a drill, it goes round. But saws, sanders, planers etc, there is a big difference. For the non professional longevity and reliability are not so high on the list but ease of use and efficiency may still be a factor.
I know, I am not a skilled carpenter, I need the best tools I can get to give me all the help I can get! I am sure a skilled experienced carpenter would be able to achieve as good if not better result with far cheaper tools. If you were playing John McEnroe you would want the best bloody tennis racket in the shop!
Toby
Of course (logically) all things being equal a higher voltage (input power) tool of the same make or comparable quality will give more output power.
As regards quality of work and reliability/longevity then undoubtedly the best tools offer an increase in both. Try a cheap Stanley plane, then go try a Lie-Nielsen. Not only will the more expensive plane last longer (several lifetimes infact) but it will cut smoother, be easier to set up and use and feel much nicer (be more pleasurable) to use. Ask Nigel Watts!
Power tools are exactly the same. You can buy a circular saw for £9.99. One of mine costs £450. Both ultimately cut wood.
The cheap one will have a rubbish blade that will have a thick kerf, may not run true giving an uneven line or even larger kerf and will blunt quickly leaving scorch marks on the wood, the motor will be noisy and the tool will vibrate and dust will be everywhere, you will not be able to cut perfectly straight, set the depth of plunge (it probably won't plunge!)
My one connects to a dust extractor, has a saw blade that runs true, has a thin kerf, stays sharp (and costs several times the cheap saw!) is quieter, has less vibration, cuts smoother, is nicer to use, comes with a guide rail so I can rip 1/4 inch off a board in a straight line, has millimetre adjustable plunge action and kick stop so I can cut boards off joists without damaging the adjacent ones in a perfectly straight line, has a three year guarantee, comes in a modular interlockable tool box and a removable electrical cable and quick release saw blade mechanism. (Phew)
Whether you require all these extra features is another matter. Value for money the cheap tools are so ridiculously cheap that most people cannot justify the extra outlay. From a moral point of view we all know battery chickens, battery laid eggs are bad and probably most ppl on here buy free range. Some probably even buy free trade coffee... Even fewer will buy more expensive "free trade cotton" clothes. Very, very few if any of you are going to look at a £9.99 drill and go "Jesus how do they do that and pay these guys properley and is it good for the environment to have such a complicated machine made so throwaway?" But there you go. Basically a top of the range power tool will generally offer much better ease of use, enjoyment of ownership and longevity, mostly, but not always, will it offer increased efficiencey and do a better job. A drill is just a drill, it goes round. But saws, sanders, planers etc, there is a big difference. For the non professional longevity and reliability are not so high on the list but ease of use and efficiency may still be a factor.
I know, I am not a skilled carpenter, I need the best tools I can get to give me all the help I can get! I am sure a skilled experienced carpenter would be able to achieve as good if not better result with far cheaper tools. If you were playing John McEnroe you would want the best bloody tennis racket in the shop!
Toby
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,202
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
Some fair points there, especially regarding cheap cutting tools. But perhaps it's possible to buy a good blade for a cheap circular saw, for example, and get the best of both worlds? I know that my cheap sawbench has performed immeasurably better since I had to buy a replacement blade.
As for playing John McEnroe at tennis, not even the best racquet in the world would help me in that scenario!
Well, based on NT's 'money=energy' hypothesis, the cheaper the tool the better it might be for the environment, in terms of overall energy usage. But this is probably not the place for ressurecting that debate :wink:Toby Newell said:
As for playing John McEnroe at tennis, not even the best racquet in the world would help me in that scenario!
Penners
Member
- Messages
- 17,294
- Location
- Suffolk, England
No way. If I've got a crap tennis racquet, then I've got an excuse for losing.Toby Newell said:
Flyfisher
Member
- Messages
- 10,202
- Location
- Norfolk, UK
Excellent Penners 
Your 'tennis glass' was half-full while mine, I'm ashamed to say, was half-empty.
Your 'tennis glass' was half-full while mine, I'm ashamed to say, was half-empty.
Toby Newell
Member
- Messages
- 1,635
- Location
- Surrey
Penners does it again...
I haven't read the money-energy thing but sounds dubious. Generally energy cost of manufacturing two similar tools is greater than the cost of producing one. Therefore if one tool lasts ten years and the other forty years... you can see where I am going. Not only that, better tools are normally more efficient, therefore waste less. Apart from the social economic issues it is a factor for me, I just don't like waste, I'm not an eco warrior, I just don't see the point.
As far as Flyfisher goes, that is an excellent point that I overlooked. Infact buying a quality blade (which would likely cost more than the original saw!) would normally result in a massive increase in performance, same with abrasives and drill bits, after all it is only what you put on the end of your machine that does the work!
You could probably go faster on a twisty track in a much slower cheaper car with top quality race tyres than a faster more expensive car with crap cheap worn out tyres.
No doubt Penners has probably tried both...
(And Nemesis has disproved the theorey already)
I haven't read the money-energy thing but sounds dubious. Generally energy cost of manufacturing two similar tools is greater than the cost of producing one. Therefore if one tool lasts ten years and the other forty years... you can see where I am going. Not only that, better tools are normally more efficient, therefore waste less. Apart from the social economic issues it is a factor for me, I just don't like waste, I'm not an eco warrior, I just don't see the point.
As far as Flyfisher goes, that is an excellent point that I overlooked. Infact buying a quality blade (which would likely cost more than the original saw!) would normally result in a massive increase in performance, same with abrasives and drill bits, after all it is only what you put on the end of your machine that does the work!
You could probably go faster on a twisty track in a much slower cheaper car with top quality race tyres than a faster more expensive car with crap cheap worn out tyres.
No doubt Penners has probably tried both...
(And Nemesis has disproved the theorey already)
Nemesis
Member
- Messages
- 9,402
- Location
- Planet Earth
Well, I have had some involvement with racing, but it's not relevant here.
Andrew Bodenham
Member
- Messages
- 441
- Location
- North Lancs
What a lot has been said in this thread already! Perhaps that's because it's difficult to make meaningful generalisations about such a broad subject. Here are a few of mine....
1) Price / quality / fitness for purpose: In my experience it really is worth buying power tools which are designed for trade use (i.e. from the better European / Japanese mfrs) rather than the very cheap items on offer in DIY sheds, Lidl etc. They generally work more quietly, with less vibration and often have more user-friendly features such as comfort grips and well placed switches. They can also be more reliable and predictable in use - adjustments are easier to make and stay adjusted, blade changing may be tool-free, robust construction means less flexing and increased accuracy etc. etc. This all adds up to tool which is safer to use and more likely to achieve the desired result consistently, which is as important to the weekend DIYer as it is to the professional craftsman.
2) The high end "Rolls Royce" tools (Festool etc.) are wonderful, but probably best left those with a serious tool fetish. They are in the area known as 'diminishing returns', i.e. paying another £100 may not really bring a very significant benefits.
3) Each tool needs to be considered on its merits, as its difficult to generalise about manufacturers. There's a whole publishing industry devoted to reviewing and testing power tools, in addition to all the info on the web. So if you really want to do your homework you can. Or you can post here and enjoy the wit and banter instead.
4) Unless you live a long way from civilisation there will be a hire shop which will give you the opportunity to try out tools which you might be considering buying. Notice which manufacturers the hire shops use - this tells you much about the quality and durability of equipment.
5) Somebody made the point about using high quality blades etc. on cheap power tools. This is certainly good practice; what goes on at the business end can really make a difference. Be aware that DIY suppliers are often offering overpriced rubbish; local trade suppliers or online suppliers like Screwfix are often a much better source. If you must use a £5 cordless drill then throw away the screwdriver bit that came in the box and treat youself to some decent bits. They might cost more than the drill, but they won't chew up the screwheads and will last for more than two screws.
1) Price / quality / fitness for purpose: In my experience it really is worth buying power tools which are designed for trade use (i.e. from the better European / Japanese mfrs) rather than the very cheap items on offer in DIY sheds, Lidl etc. They generally work more quietly, with less vibration and often have more user-friendly features such as comfort grips and well placed switches. They can also be more reliable and predictable in use - adjustments are easier to make and stay adjusted, blade changing may be tool-free, robust construction means less flexing and increased accuracy etc. etc. This all adds up to tool which is safer to use and more likely to achieve the desired result consistently, which is as important to the weekend DIYer as it is to the professional craftsman.
2) The high end "Rolls Royce" tools (Festool etc.) are wonderful, but probably best left those with a serious tool fetish. They are in the area known as 'diminishing returns', i.e. paying another £100 may not really bring a very significant benefits.
3) Each tool needs to be considered on its merits, as its difficult to generalise about manufacturers. There's a whole publishing industry devoted to reviewing and testing power tools, in addition to all the info on the web. So if you really want to do your homework you can. Or you can post here and enjoy the wit and banter instead.
4) Unless you live a long way from civilisation there will be a hire shop which will give you the opportunity to try out tools which you might be considering buying. Notice which manufacturers the hire shops use - this tells you much about the quality and durability of equipment.
5) Somebody made the point about using high quality blades etc. on cheap power tools. This is certainly good practice; what goes on at the business end can really make a difference. Be aware that DIY suppliers are often offering overpriced rubbish; local trade suppliers or online suppliers like Screwfix are often a much better source. If you must use a £5 cordless drill then throw away the screwdriver bit that came in the box and treat youself to some decent bits. They might cost more than the drill, but they won't chew up the screwheads and will last for more than two screws.