Help a newbie

[Muppet]

Hi - new member about to ask a dumb new member question I'm afraid.

I'm thinking of buying my fathers house. its a large (9 bedroom, 20 rooms overall, 3 stories) mainly Georgian (though some older) rectory in Norfolk.

Its not in terrible shape but...it is deteriorating, and needs to be fixed. Isolated damp but mainly caused by roof leakage (I hope) not anything more serious. But I have no idea how much and want to check before I get full survey and quotes, just in case I am mad. I think the priorities are:

1. Roof. 1/3 has just been redone. I think I have to assume the rest will need redoing. I'm budgeting £80k.
2. windows. its has 35 windows, mainly Georgian. 5 of them are very large (18 pane). I suspect these 5 need replacing with double glazed replicas. I think half of the rest need gentle restoration. the others can probably wait. so lets say 5 v large new windows @3k each and 15 by hand at £1k each = £30k
3. rewiring. last done 40 years ago so probably needs total redo. most wires in external casing. NO IDEA how much! £50k?
4. exterior painting. whole house. some areas will need plastering beforehand. Lots of scaffolding obv. £50k?
5. internal - strip, repair, repaint half the rooms, renovate kitchen (nothing fancy), a few carpets, maybe a new shower etc. £50k

so that's a total of c. £250k probably spread over 3 years. does this seem anywhere near reasonable?

 

[TudorCottage]

I’m assuming it’s not listed.

1.Was it £40k to get a third done? £80k seems high. I’m just having a relatively large thatched roof replaced for less than half that amount.

2.Window estimate seems a bit low, if it’s not listed I would imagine 5 Georgian double glazed units made to measure would be a pretty penny.

3.I’ve no idea either but I would say a bit less than £50k

4. Depends how much needs new render, don’t think the painting alone would be that expensive.

5. How much do you want to spend? This is really down to the quality of materials and how far you want to go.

I caveat that with I’m not a professional roofer, glazier, builder, electrician or decorator. But apart from my roof have carried a lot of the above on our place myself. So my labour came free, but the correct materials in many cases do come at a premium price.

Good luck

 

[Muppet]

I’m assuming it’s not listed.

1.Was it £40k to get a third done? £80k seems high. I’m just having a relatively large thatched roof replaced for less than half that amount.

2.Window estimate seems a bit low, if it’s not listed I would imagine 5 Georgian double glazed units made to measure would be a pretty penny.

3.I’ve no idea either but I would say a bit less than £50k

4. Depends how much needs new render, don’t think the painting alone would be that expensive.

5. How much do you want to spend? This is really down to the quality of materials and how far you want to go.

I caveat that with I’m not a professional roofer, glazier, builder, electrician or decorator. But apart from my roof have carried a lot of the above on our place myself. So my labour came free, but the correct materials in many cases do come at a premium price.

Good luck

Thanks so much. Its grade 2 listed but i hopefully - as everything will be like-for-like - shouldn't be too much of a problem with consent. but of course makes everything more expensive, particularly if there are problems.

To do a third of the roof was 30k, so im budgeting a little more on the assumption that the rest needs to be done a little better and some gremlins are found beyond just tiles. And yes windows could well be more though im hopeful of getting them made in poland where its a little cheaper. but consent might make this bit harder. if needs be ill do them in batches over the years but the more we can do in one go, the better. and again yes, the final budget for tarting up the inside is really the contingency budget - just depends what is left over!

Really just needed a bit of reassurance that the figures aren't way way off. until work starts obviously, then you realise the hidden horrors and quietly cry.

 

[Muppet]

 

[Muppet]

thats the house if helpful

 

[TudorCottage]

Very nice.

I’ll bring my scaffold tower and do the exterior decorating for £40k

 

[ThornhillMike]

Hi - new member about to ask a dumb new member question I'm afraid.

I'm thinking of buying my fathers house. its a large (9 bedroom, 20 rooms overall, 3 stories) mainly Georgian (though some older) rectory in Norfolk.

Its not in terrible shape but...it is deteriorating, and needs to be fixed. Isolated damp but mainly caused by roof leakage (I hope) not anything more serious. But I have no idea how much and want to check before I get full survey and quotes, just in case I am mad. I think the priorities are:

1. Roof. 1/3 has just been redone. I think I have to assume the rest will need redoing. I'm budgeting £80k.
2. windows. its has 35 windows, mainly Georgian. 5 of them are very large (18 pane). I suspect these 5 need replacing with double glazed replicas. I think half of the rest need gentle restoration. the others can probably wait. so lets say 5 v large new windows @3k each and 15 by hand at £1k each = £30k
3. rewiring. last done 40 years ago so probably needs total redo. most wires in external casing. NO IDEA how much! £50k?
4. exterior painting. whole house. some areas will need plastering beforehand. Lots of scaffolding obv. £50k?
5. internal - strip, repair, repaint half the rooms, renovate kitchen (nothing fancy), a few carpets, maybe a new shower etc. £50k

so that's a total of c. £250k probably spread over 3 years. does this seem anywhere near reasonable?

We're just at the start of a similar renovation. Georgian, 8 bedroomed, four storey (including the basement rooms). Ours suffered dreadfully from being left empty 3/4 years with a leaking roof. Your priorities will be similar to ours; roof; windows; external rendering/painting; total re-wire.. and then some tidying up inside.
Your overall estimate doesn't seem too far off. We've budgeted nearer £400k but it's s bigger property to be fair overall.
1. Full re-roof in slate was £45k
2. We have 52 (!) windows in varying sizes. I'm replacing them all with hardwood DG sashes and they should come in at about £115k. The big ones are £3.5k each (handmade) so your estimates are valid. I wouldn't underestimate how long it will take you to 'restore' these yourself (and how successful that will be) versus leaky windows for years to come until you have the time.
3. I'm fully rewiring (with my brother-in-law who's a Sparky) and have budgeted £20k - probably best doubling that for trades
4. We have to strip a lot of render and re-lime, plus painting, plus scaffolding (scaffolding will make your eyes water - we paid £8k just for two gable platforms for the roofing). We've budgeted £30k for that but I'm worried it will be a good deal more
5. Internally you can spend what you like of course. I wouldn't personally scrimp on the kitchen (you'll spend a lot of time in there). We have five bathrooms, which are adding to the cost, and 6,000 sq ft of flooring to replace.

Overall you could easily spend £250k (I'd go in prepared for £300k). We're also assuming three years of work.
I'd get a full survey done by a recommended surveyor; it possibly won't tell you a lot more than you already know/fear but we found it helpful in setting priorities.

Go in with your eyes open and a desire to see the place come alive; it will help with the inevitable (and repeated setbacks!). I personally wouldn't pass up the chance to bring a family home to glory, but you need to be confident the place can carry £300k of value so you're not throwing money away on sentiment alone.

There will be a lot of parallels with our own journey; I'll watch on with interest!

 

[Muppet]

brilliant and thank you. Because ours has been in the family for 50 years in pretty comfortable with the ...'shabby chic'... (bordering on run down!) interior for the foreseeable future, bar a few rooms where it has just gone too far. So watertight and sound is the main 3 year plan. hopefully we wont get too many surprises.

And of course, your house is incredible.

 

[Muppet]

Very nice.

I’ll bring my scaffold tower and do the exterior decorating for £40k

ha! that picture was 20 years ago. Its degraded a fair bit since then so, deal!

 

[ThornhillMike]

brilliant and thank you. Because ours has been in the family for 50 years in pretty comfortable with the ...'shabby chic'... (bordering on run down!) interior for the foreseeable future, bar a few rooms where it has just gone too far. So watertight and sound is the main 3 year plan. hopefully we wont get too many surprises.

And of course, your house is incredible.

Thank you. I rather hope it will be one day... Good luck with your adventure.

 

[Toby Newell]

All good advice.

Prices can vary a lot depending on location, I've only worked in Norfolk a few times so not sure. (worked near Narford, and on Shropham House)

1. No idea about the roof, doesn't seem silly.

2. This seems very light, I could easily expect windows to be double that or more.

3. For the electrics, all depends on what access is like for running the cables, good estimate but hopefully can be a bit cheaper.

4. You might get away with a bit less for painting the exterior, especially if you are going for new windows, however consider...

5. This seems a bit light too, a bit of stripping and repainting to half the rooms could easily be £20-£25k on it's own, for half and that might escalate. You say nothing fancy but very easy to blow £25k on kitchen and bathroom (including appliances) and what about heating and boiler? That can be £tens k on it's own, depending on what needs replacing.

You also have to allow for what ifs. Only one thing you can guarantee in period properties, to expect the unexpected. Sounds amazing.

 

[Muppet]

All good advice.

Prices can vary a lot depending on location, I've only worked in Norfolk a few times so not sure. (worked near Narford, and on Shropham House)

1. No idea about the roof, doesn't seem silly.

2. This seems very light, I could easily expect windows to be double that or more.

3. For the electrics, all depends on what access is like for running the cables, good estimate but hopefully can be a bit cheaper.

4. You might get away with a bit less for painting the exterior, especially if you are going for new windows, however consider...

5. This seems a bit light too, a bit of stripping and repainting to half the rooms could easily be £20-£25k on it's own, for half and that might escalate. You say nothing fancy but very easy to blow £25k on kitchen and bathroom (including appliances) and what about heating and boiler? That can be £tens k on it's own, depending on what needs replacing.

You also have to allow for what ifs. Only one thing you can guarantee in period properties, to expect the unexpected. Sounds amazing.

Thanks. I think I’ll have to refurbish the windows really - getting consent for new ones is difficult and I think they are mainly saveable.

Luckily the heating is good - new ground source system this year - and we don’t need any appliances except one day an oven that has more than two (tepid and furnace) settings. Bathrooms can wait if needed.

But yes, on the interior I’ll just do what I can till the money runs out then reassess.

Hopefully not all the roof will need doing and the exterior will be cheaper but as you say, it’s much more likely to go in the other direction.

Current house going on the market this week so fingers crossed it sells then I can get survey and costs and stop guessing. Will update!

 

[Muppet]

finally managed top sell my property so ready to start the process on my fathers house. very frightening and exciting. am booking in survey with indicative costs / priorities for works so will post these here when I get them if anyone is interested!

 

[Flyfisher]

I've spent the last 17 years on a similar project, grade 2* and in very poor condition when I started. It's now mostly completed but these things are a bit like the Forth Bridge so there's always something to do. I did a lot of the work myself, learning a huge amount in the process with the help and encouragement of the good folks on this forum, sometimes including actual work on site to show me the ropes! DIY can save a lot of money but of course it takes a lot of time. I was fortunate in that I retired early so I had the time, but even so, you still need the interest and dedication - especially when you start to think you've bitten off more than you can comfortably chew, which is where this forum helped me so much. Even then, I've also used contractors when the going got too tough and I needed a break!

One important thing though. You haven't mentioned if you've been in contact with your local council conservation officer/historic buildings consultant. It sounds like much of the work you envisage could be classed as like-for-like repairs and so may not require listed building consent, but I'd still recommend discussing your plans for the house with your CO, especially as you're considering wholesale replacement of those rather lovely windows. If they are as knowledgeable and helpful as my CO then it's like having a free expert to give advice.

Whereabouts (approximately) is the house? If it's anywhere near me in West Norfolk I'd be happy to give you some recommendations for builders used to working on older properties.

 

[Muppet]

I've spent the last 17 years on a similar project, grade 2* and in very poor condition when I started. It's now mostly completed but these things are a bit like the Forth Bridge so there's always something to do. I did a lot of the work myself, learning a huge amount in the process with the help and encouragement of the good folks on this forum, sometimes including actual work on site to show me the ropes! DIY can save a lot of money but of course it takes a lot of time. I was fortunate in that I retired early so I had the time, but even so, you still need the interest and dedication - especially when you start to think you've bitten off more than you can comfortably chew, which is where this forum helped me so much. Even then, I've also used contractors when the going got too tough and I needed a break!

One important thing though. You haven't mentioned if you've been in contact with your local council conservation officer/historic buildings consultant. It sounds like much of the work you envisage could be classed as like-for-like repairs and so may not require listed building consent, but I'd still recommend discussing your plans for the house with your CO, especially as you're considering wholesale replacement of those rather lovely windows. If they are as knowledgeable and helpful as my CO then it's like having a free expert to give advice.

Whereabouts (approximately) is the house? If it's anywhere near me in West Norfolk I'd be happy to give you some recommendations for builders used to working on older properties.

Thanks flyfisher. It’s 5 miles inland from Cromer, so prob not v near you!

Yes I need to think about consent. In theory not needed as all like for like (and I’m going to refurb rather than replace windows for now). So part of me thinks ask anyway, part of me thinks don’t get dragged into potential bureaucracy.

I guess I’ll see what the survey says and take it from there but will keep you updated…

 

[Flyfisher]

OK, not so close then. Your surveyor will probably be able to suggest local builders anyway. As ever, good ones are not easy to find and even when you do they are often booked up many months ahead. Indeed, I tended to think that was a yardstick for how good they were. One specialist 'heritage' company I contacted many years ago said they were not quoting for any work at the time as they had a two year backlog!

I know what you mean about the listing bureaucracy and remember being equally concerned and dubious about it all. So much depends on the CO and mine has been really helpful over the years and even sided with me when English Heritage (now Historic England) was not keen on some proposals but managed to persuade them otherwise. Yet from many posts on here, some COs are barely contactable at all and even charge to visit a property!

Anyway, welcome to the mad yet wonderful world of historic properties!

 

[Muppet]

Hi all, so I am ready to exchange but as ever it’s not simple.

I’m buying the house of my father, who has had it for 50 years.

He hasn’t done much to it beyond maintenance. But he has recently put a new roof on that is good, but not exact match for original tiles. And he has put in ground source heating and new radiators (in same places so not dramatic).

Of course it turns out he didn’t get listed (grade 2) consent for any of this. Dumb.

I’m not really sure how worried to be. We will have to submit plans for the maintenance we want to do, so a visit is likely and his lack of consent is likely to be noticed. But are they really going to object to (invisible) ground source heating? Maybe to the roof I guess.

I’m asking him to get insurance to cover the risk but even this seems risky. Is there anything clever I can do? Don’t really have time to get a visit / consultation in before sale….

 

[a twig]

My understanding is getting the insurance is about all you can do really (unless someone here knows better)

 

[a twig]

Heating should probably be fine but a lot will depend how understanding your local conservation officer is

 

[Muppet]

Heating should probably be fine but a lot will depend how understanding your local conservation officer is

God I hope so!

Think insurance probably is the only option but I have read that it get invalidated if the policy holder alerts a conservation officer to any issues. That seems nuts but hopefully a visit from a CO (who may or may not notice past works) doesn’t count as alerting them.

The cost would be a pain. Landing my 87 year old father with criminal charges would be … something else! The rest of his years in prison, all over a dodgy tile