Would these windows have been sashes?

[yamin]

I'm sorry to be so ignorant, but what would that look like? just a link to a pic of an example is fine. I have an idea of course but not sure exactly what you mean.

This is original back window.....much better but much earlier than front bays as you say

 

[Moo]

Moo, please tell me if I've got this wrong.

For what it's worth, I think I do slightly prefer the single bar version.

Exactly what I was thinking of, Penners!

And I agree about the single bar version.



great minds,and all that....?

 

[biffvernon]

I'm sorry to be so ignorant, but what would that look like? just a link to a pic of an example is fine. I have an idea of course but not sure exactly what you mean.

This is original back window.....much better but much earlier than front bays as you say

Yes, that back window could well be 1780.

What I have in mind as a possibility for what was in the newer front bay is not exactly third down on the left under 'casement windows' at http://www.freepedia.co.uk/DIRHomesWindowsSash&Casement.php
but that's the sort of idea, maybe with two rather than three sections to the middle bit. (I'm not particularly suggesting that's what you ought to have - rather that that's what might have been there.)

There's a lot of interesting stuff on that freepedia site.

 

[Schoolmarm]

What a great link Biff, just spent ages in there.

 

[Feltwell]

In the absence of any evidence, I'd also suggest that the upstairs were sashes - for the simple reason that most people don't have a huge amount of imagination and keep things looking more or less as they are, and those plastic windows bear more resemblance to a sash than a casement.

As for the bays... who knows? I'm inclined to say sashes - if your house was given a Victorian "makeover". But if you take my argument above then Biff's idea is more likely!! Personally I prefer the look of sashes, but that's just my preference - the mock up done earlier with a single glazing bar looks good to me.

For an idea of what it could look like - here's my (in need of much work ) 1899 bay with a "2 over 1" main sash - although it's proportions are taller than yours.

As you can see, it has a flat roof - as it was originally built, it's quite common. Unless you can find marks on your front wall where roof timbers have been removed, I'd suggest yours was added with a flat roof originally. You have to have a minimum 35 degree roof angle to use plain tiles (which it looks like your roof is), with many bays there is not enough room between the top of the bay and the bottom of the first floor windows to achieve this. Plus of course a flat roof is easier to build.

I'd definitely go with larger panes of glass in your sashes, either 2 over 2 or 2 over 1 - small multiple panes are from an earlier age and I don't think would look right if your house had this Victorian "makeover", if that's the look / era you're trying to retain. Round here the "posher" late Victorian houses have 2 over 1 at the front:-

And round the back of the "posher" houses, or anywhere on more humble houses, 2 over 2 seems to dominate:-

As for cost of new sashes - apart from Biff's excellent oak windows, this chap is not too far from you and was advertising that he'd make sashes up to a certain size (can't remember what, but it was fairly large) for around £600 each from memory. That was in softwood with a hardwood cill, and was for a traditional box sash - i.e. with cords, pulleys and hidden weights running in "boxes" in the frame. Many joiners use spiral balances instead now, as to if that bothers you or not is another matter - they do look a bit different on the inside compared to box sash arrangement the Victorians used. I've no connection with this man and haven't seen his work.

http://www.benchmarkmaster.co.uk/index.html

And finally - I can't believe that this one has slipped through without any comments....... :wink:

But give me a while and I'll happily fiddle with your upstairs.

I'm not 13 really, honest. Getting old is inevitable, but maturity is optional!

 

[agbagb]

It's a tricky one, do you go for something of the buildings age or the victorian re-styling? or plan "C"

I have a feeling that the victorian remodeling, if done with sashes never actually look right straight off. The proportions just don't work for sash windows. Although various different combinations of glazing bars, numbers of panes where used to visually correct proportions. The creativity employed when they where knocking older buildings around was quite extensive.

Looking at the building as a whole, I would seriously consider Arts and Craft style, "chuncky" timber casements. On a "rural" building such as this, I think it would fit much better even though the flat roofed bays aren't spot on style. The gabled up-stairs windows and the lack of height to the bays point more to the Arts and Craft style.

Another thing to consider, it is possible that the original windows where Yorkshire Sashes (horizontal sliding), pre alterations.

AND- You would need Double Glazing for the regs. Its cheaper and easier to fitt DG in chuncky casements than into slim sectioned well proportioned sliding sashes.

Hope that's not thrown too much of a spanner in the works.

I've had a look window design history for a project on sliding sash windows I'm working on, Historical influences on Window Design

Cheers
Andy

 

[biffvernon]

AND- You would need Double Glazing for the regs. Its cheaper and easier to fitt DG in chuncky casements than into slim sectioned well proportioned sliding sashes.

However, some of us scratch a living from the attempt at double glazed well proportioned sash windows.

 

[agbagb]

Biffvernon, I'm not knocking well made, well proportioned DG sliding sashes. It can be done well. The skill and time that goes in to doing a good job from a craftsman such as yourself has to be paid for. If it's right for the building it's a price worth paying.

In this case though I support your earlier suggestion of timber casements in an arts and craft style. IMO I think would look right and be less costly than good timber sliding sashes.

Andy

 

[yamin]

What I have in mind as a possibility for what was in the newer front bay is not exactly third down on the left under 'casement windows' at http://www.freepedia.co.uk/DIRHomesWindowsSash&Casement.php
but that's the sort of idea, maybe with two rather than three sections to the middle bit. (I'm not particularly suggesting that's what you ought to have - rather that that's what might have been there.)

So you think the windows these PVC ones replaced are so very different in look from the victorian originals? To me, that one looks quite 'town'-ey - does that make sense? Rather nice but almost too involved for the simplicity of this house and area. Goodness knows you know far better than I what might have been there, but my gut feeling is still simpler on this one. I love that website though. The roof of both are flat and leaded, which I assume is what was always there....? Thanks Biff

As you can see, it has a flat roof - as it was originally built, it's quite common. Unless you can find marks on your front wall where roof timbers have been removed, I'd suggest yours was added with a flat roof originally. You have to have a minimum 35 degree roof angle to use plain tiles (which it looks like your roof is), with many bays there is not enough room between the top of the bay and the bottom of the first floor windows to achieve this. Plus of course a flat roof is easier to build.

Yes, this is similar to what I thought. Again, I think yours is in a town area, am I right? And am I right to gather that fashions can be 'delayed' in the country by the time it took for them to reach and be absorbed into the rural vernacular. I do think your bay is also more ornate than what I think we may have had, but as I said to Biff, I have no expert knowledge to say that. I just feel ours is a simple countryside home. I totally agree on the large panes of glass. I have never considered 2 over 2 or 2 over 1 etc and need to explore that one much more. Thanks for the pics and advice. Also the link, which is interesting and closish.

It's a tricky one, do you go for something of the buildings age or the victorian re-styling? or plan "C"

I have a feeling that the victorian remodeling, if done with sashes never actually look right straight off. The proportions just don't work for sash windows. Although various different combinations of glazing bars, numbers of panes where used to visually correct proportions. The creativity employed when they where knocking older buildings around was quite extensive.

I'd definitely go with larger panes of glass in your sashes, either 2 over 2 or 2 over 1 - small multiple panes are from an earlier age and I don't think would look right if your house had this Victorian "makeover", if that's the look / era you're trying to retain. Round here the "posher" late Victorian houses have 2 over 1 at the front:-

I'd never considered arts and crafts. Not sure, need to look more closely into this, though I hear what you say re DG - notwithstanding Biff's ability to work in the finer frames. I feel with so little evidence of what was there before the bays we couldnt think of trying to recreate, I'd just like to feel we were replacing what it looked like after the victorian upgrade. Happy enough with the flat roofs, with the lead in place I think thats what would have been, and again, I don't think this was a no expense spared type upgrade, but just a simple one. Hmmm, food for thought, thank you

 

[Feltwell]

Yes, this is similar to what I thought. Again, I think yours is in a town area, am I right? And am I right to gather that fashions can be 'delayed' in the country by the time it took for them to reach and be absorbed into the rural vernacular.

It is in a town - but a small, very rural market town, out in what was then the East Shropshire coalfield. It certainly wouldn't have been at the cutting edge of fashion - although there is a certain amount of Victorian "one-upmanship" where I am, which would have been the new posh bit on the outskirts of town when it was first built.

 

[agbagb]

If you could somehow date the "upgrades" it could rule in or out the Arts and Craft timber casements as a possibility. Pre 1870/80 ish and they would definately have been sashes. Post , there's a chance that the new style could have been in vogue.