skier-hughes
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Bit of a difference between hand made and machine made.
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Window prices.
- Thread starter Manks
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Penners
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Ooh - that's a controversial statement!skier-hughes said:Bit of a difference between hand made and machine made.
What do "machine made" and "hand made" mean, exactly? If you drill holes with your little Black & Decker, does that make the item machine made? Or if you mould the arrises on a spindle moulder....? Or if you use a chisel morticer... or a tenoner... and so on ad infinitum.
skier-hughes
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Ok one man making a piece of craftmanship using tool of the trade, compared to a computer controlled robot.
Awaiting your hole picking Penners :wink:
Awaiting your hole picking Penners :wink:
Penners
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If you pick it, it'll never get better. :wink:
Actually it depends how you define "better", as in "a better product".
"Handmade" has a nice, comforting human-touch sort of feel about it. But the chances that no machinery of any kind was involved are pretty remote. And of course for a unique, one-off product, hand-making is normally still the only cost-effective way for the job to be done. I don't need to tell you how long it takes to write a computer program, and that cost, plus machine setting times, tooling costs and so on all has to be amortised over a long production run, in order to be cost-effective.
But for sheer accuracy and assured repeatability, give me a CNC machine over a human hand any day.
Now duck and run Penners, before Biff reads this.
Actually it depends how you define "better", as in "a better product".
"Handmade" has a nice, comforting human-touch sort of feel about it. But the chances that no machinery of any kind was involved are pretty remote. And of course for a unique, one-off product, hand-making is normally still the only cost-effective way for the job to be done. I don't need to tell you how long it takes to write a computer program, and that cost, plus machine setting times, tooling costs and so on all has to be amortised over a long production run, in order to be cost-effective.
But for sheer accuracy and assured repeatability, give me a CNC machine over a human hand any day.
Now duck and run Penners, before Biff reads this.
biffvernon
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No, you're quite right , Penners.
One aspect relevant to the matter in hand, some of the tropical hardwoods beloved by mass production joinery industry are very consistent. The wood doesn't vary much from inch to inch so you can feed a tree into one end of the computer controlled factory and identical products will pop out the other end, without anyone actually having to look at the wood. Of course they look dull and boring so you wouldn't want to look at it. Just paint it.
With hand made (machine assisted) oak joinery, one has to choose each piece of wood and decide how to work round sapwood, shakes, knots, figure and other features so that it does not look dull and boring and so one would not want to paint it. The timber may be the same price but the product may be different in many respects, including price and welfare of monkeys.
One aspect relevant to the matter in hand, some of the tropical hardwoods beloved by mass production joinery industry are very consistent. The wood doesn't vary much from inch to inch so you can feed a tree into one end of the computer controlled factory and identical products will pop out the other end, without anyone actually having to look at the wood. Of course they look dull and boring so you wouldn't want to look at it. Just paint it.
With hand made (machine assisted) oak joinery, one has to choose each piece of wood and decide how to work round sapwood, shakes, knots, figure and other features so that it does not look dull and boring and so one would not want to paint it. The timber may be the same price but the product may be different in many respects, including price and welfare of monkeys.
Nemesis
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My coffee mug is currently standing on an oak window board, part of a hand made (machine assisted) oak window.
I now feel very guilty. I should appreciate such a work of genius should be unadorned and unsullied by the detritus of my study. (Sounds grander than it actually is...)
There's a coaster between it and the work of art, showing the Silver Jubliee, Britain's first streamline train - Newcastle to London in 4 hours!
Weekdays from 30th September 1935. First Class five shillings, Third Class three shillings.
I now feel very guilty. I should appreciate such a work of genius should be unadorned and unsullied by the detritus of my study. (Sounds grander than it actually is...)
There's a coaster between it and the work of art, showing the Silver Jubliee, Britain's first streamline train - Newcastle to London in 4 hours!
Weekdays from 30th September 1935. First Class five shillings, Third Class three shillings.
If I am going to ensure that no monkeys are harmed in the procurement of my new windows, I don't want someone using POWER TOOLS to form the pieces of wood. Heavens no. What about the polar bears?
Not only does the use of power tools contribute significantly to global warming, and the melting of the polar ice caps, a recent study amongst polar bears revealed that they suffer stress as a result of not being able to use power tools themselves. Polar bears said that they felt "degraded" by the use of power tools by humans when they are not able to use them due to a lack of opposing thumbs.
I would also not want the workshop in which they are made to be heated, nor use of any internal combustion vehicles for delivery of product. In order to keep emissions to a minimum I will insist on delivery by horse and cart, but as horses' flatus contributes to global warming, I will also insist that the joiner lives in our village, thus keeping to a minimum the horse miles.
I am also concerned about the impact the window furniture will have on the planet. New metal handles will require manufacture at vast global cost, and even the nails and screws will have to come for somewhere. I think I will insist upon recycled nails and string hinges, with a wooden thumb turn as a latch.
What about the glass? Oh my, I'd overlooked that. Don't tell me... they use heat to make glass? Oh lordy, I will have to make do with the leftover glass from the greenhouse (though how GREEN is it?), or perhaps I should drape hessian sheet over the frames?
The above should hopefully ensure my acceptance by the Greenies, and since I have given up my car and begun wearing recycled dog hair moccasins I find that I am unable to stray far from my house. I pride myself on having regressed 250 years.
Lets hope I don't just cave in and buy the windows I want, manufactured in a manner I can afford.
Manks
Not only does the use of power tools contribute significantly to global warming, and the melting of the polar ice caps, a recent study amongst polar bears revealed that they suffer stress as a result of not being able to use power tools themselves. Polar bears said that they felt "degraded" by the use of power tools by humans when they are not able to use them due to a lack of opposing thumbs.
I would also not want the workshop in which they are made to be heated, nor use of any internal combustion vehicles for delivery of product. In order to keep emissions to a minimum I will insist on delivery by horse and cart, but as horses' flatus contributes to global warming, I will also insist that the joiner lives in our village, thus keeping to a minimum the horse miles.
I am also concerned about the impact the window furniture will have on the planet. New metal handles will require manufacture at vast global cost, and even the nails and screws will have to come for somewhere. I think I will insist upon recycled nails and string hinges, with a wooden thumb turn as a latch.
What about the glass? Oh my, I'd overlooked that. Don't tell me... they use heat to make glass? Oh lordy, I will have to make do with the leftover glass from the greenhouse (though how GREEN is it?), or perhaps I should drape hessian sheet over the frames?
The above should hopefully ensure my acceptance by the Greenies, and since I have given up my car and begun wearing recycled dog hair moccasins I find that I am unable to stray far from my house. I pride myself on having regressed 250 years.
Lets hope I don't just cave in and buy the windows I want, manufactured in a manner I can afford.
Manks
Nemesis
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Just make sure they aren't illegally harvested hardwood.
Nemesis
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Let's juat say coasters are something I know about. Alton Towers is really a modern pretender.
However, I wasn't sure calling myself Big Dipper, Nash, Roller Coaster, Wild Mouse etc had the same ring.
However, I wasn't sure calling myself Big Dipper, Nash, Roller Coaster, Wild Mouse etc had the same ring.
biffvernon
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No I haven't. I'm a tad suspicious of some of the claims made for them but I've never actually seen one in real life. I'd be interested to.
skier-hughes
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Ooh - that's a controversial statement!
Surely things like plastic/wood, where the wood has come from, type of wood, type of glass, single/double/triple glazing all as to be taken into account........
:wink: :lol: :lol:
Graham
biffvernon
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Not just controversial, it's wrong.
Nemesis
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Yeah, Biff's pretty laid back when making his windows, and his energy comes at the cost of his food/beer input.
Penners
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I'm not up-to-date with the price of monkeys, but certainly concerned for their welfare. And I agree with every word you say.biffvernon said:some of the tropical hardwoods beloved by mass production joinery industry are very consistent. The wood doesn't vary much from inch to inch so you can feed a tree into one end of the computer controlled factory and identical products will pop out the other end, without anyone actually having to look at the wood. Of course they look dull and boring so you wouldn't want to look at it. Just paint it.
With hand made (machine assisted) oak joinery, one has to choose each piece of wood and decide how to work round sapwood, shakes, knots, figure and other features so that it does not look dull and boring and so one would not want to paint it. The timber may be the same price but the product may be different in many respects, including price and welfare of monkeys.
biffvernon
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Good to see someone is maintaining the standard of English on this forum.Penners said:the price of monkeys,