Schoolmarm
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:lol: :lol: :lol: I never thought of that. :lol: :lol:
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Feltwell
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This weekend's job was putting secondary glazing on this bay.
Badly in need of renovation, this window is very draughty and I suspect is the main culprit as to why our lounge is always cold in winter. Needs proper attention really, but this was to make it better now - the full renovation job I'll hopefully get around to next summer.
Here's some "before's" from the inside:-
First, timber strips were added around the windows, in order to make the steel tape sit proud enough to clear the staff beads. Not every window would need this.
Steel self-adhesive tape is then stuck onto these. This is what you'd see when the glazing is down in summer, although there's no reason why you can't paint over this to make it blend in a little better. It's all reversible with very minimal damage as the timber strips are only pinned in place.
The steel strip, for reasons I don't know (probably my cack-handedness!) is difficult to cut square with ordinary tin snips or aviation-type shears. In the end I found these worked the best:-
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?isSearch=true&fh_search=stanley+tin
You can get 2 types of acrylic sheet ("Perspex" - is a brand name) - cast and extruded. The cast type is supposed to be optically better than the extruded, although having used both types now the extruded type is a lot cheaper and the difference is barely noticeable.
Acrylic sheet is a sod to cut well, so if your windows are actually in square then definitely get it cut by the supplier. My bay is massively out-of-square, so I had the sheet supplied over-size for me to then curse and swear cutting it the right size and shape! To cut it I first tried the recommended method of an aluminium cutting blade in a small cordless circular saw. Bad idea - the perspex chipped badly and try as I might I couldn't stop it chipping the corner off at the end of each run. Using a router instead gave a much, much better finish, even if it does generate a lot of swarf.
This was the cheapest supplier I could find - if anyone finds cheaper please let me know!
http://www.theplasticman.co.uk/
Self-adhesive magnetic tape goes on the inside of the acrylic sheet - this tape is very soft and can easily be cut with ordinary scissors.
The finished job:-
I don't think it's as permanent as some of the systems on the market, but it is relatively cheap and I think visually a lot less intrusive than most. Acrylic is optically very stable, so I hope with care (it's nowhere near as scratch resistant as glass) to get at least 10 years service out of it, hopefully more. If you needed a stronger bond than the magnet - to - steel tapes offer, you can get opposed polarity magnetic tapes, although the magnetic tape to go on your frame would be much thicker than the steel tape - also they only seem to be available in a graphite-grey colour.
This still wouldn't be strong enough to use glass instead of acrylic sheet though.
Badly in need of renovation, this window is very draughty and I suspect is the main culprit as to why our lounge is always cold in winter. Needs proper attention really, but this was to make it better now - the full renovation job I'll hopefully get around to next summer.
Here's some "before's" from the inside:-
First, timber strips were added around the windows, in order to make the steel tape sit proud enough to clear the staff beads. Not every window would need this.
Steel self-adhesive tape is then stuck onto these. This is what you'd see when the glazing is down in summer, although there's no reason why you can't paint over this to make it blend in a little better. It's all reversible with very minimal damage as the timber strips are only pinned in place.
The steel strip, for reasons I don't know (probably my cack-handedness!) is difficult to cut square with ordinary tin snips or aviation-type shears. In the end I found these worked the best:-
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?isSearch=true&fh_search=stanley+tin
You can get 2 types of acrylic sheet ("Perspex" - is a brand name) - cast and extruded. The cast type is supposed to be optically better than the extruded, although having used both types now the extruded type is a lot cheaper and the difference is barely noticeable.
Acrylic sheet is a sod to cut well, so if your windows are actually in square then definitely get it cut by the supplier. My bay is massively out-of-square, so I had the sheet supplied over-size for me to then curse and swear cutting it the right size and shape! To cut it I first tried the recommended method of an aluminium cutting blade in a small cordless circular saw. Bad idea - the perspex chipped badly and try as I might I couldn't stop it chipping the corner off at the end of each run. Using a router instead gave a much, much better finish, even if it does generate a lot of swarf.
This was the cheapest supplier I could find - if anyone finds cheaper please let me know!
http://www.theplasticman.co.uk/
Self-adhesive magnetic tape goes on the inside of the acrylic sheet - this tape is very soft and can easily be cut with ordinary scissors.
The finished job:-
I don't think it's as permanent as some of the systems on the market, but it is relatively cheap and I think visually a lot less intrusive than most. Acrylic is optically very stable, so I hope with care (it's nowhere near as scratch resistant as glass) to get at least 10 years service out of it, hopefully more. If you needed a stronger bond than the magnet - to - steel tapes offer, you can get opposed polarity magnetic tapes, although the magnetic tape to go on your frame would be much thicker than the steel tape - also they only seem to be available in a graphite-grey colour.
This still wouldn't be strong enough to use glass instead of acrylic sheet though.
CatherineB
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:?: Any reason why none of the corners of the magnetic tape, Feltwell's or Tom's, are mitred? I think these acrylic DIY units look really good, but the corners grate slightly on me. Is there a practical reason why they shouldn't/can't have mitred corners on the tape?
:?: Will you be painting the wood/steel strip at some point, given the long life you hope to have out of them? Just wondering if painting over the steel (or over a magnetic tape strip, if you used that) would significantly lessen the magnetic strength.
:?: What are you doing next weekend, Feltwell ?! :lol:
:?: Will you be painting the wood/steel strip at some point, given the long life you hope to have out of them? Just wondering if painting over the steel (or over a magnetic tape strip, if you used that) would significantly lessen the magnetic strength.
:?: What are you doing next weekend, Feltwell ?! :lol:
TomW
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It's just laziness on my part I'm afraid 
. The window is in my clinic room, which I rent and is normally hidden by the Venetian blind, so a utilitarian job was all that was needed.
There is no reason why you can't mitre the corners if you take a bit of care.
. The window is in my clinic room, which I rent and is normally hidden by the Venetian blind, so a utilitarian job was all that was needed.There is no reason why you can't mitre the corners if you take a bit of care.
d49xc
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This is all most interesting....
I've done a couple of glass DIY secondary glazing units for more permanent installation....rather a long drawn out proceedure, you wouldn't want to do this on many frames! as follows:
Measure up size of secondary DG required to get the outside length (2 sides+top+bottom)
Get some strips of hardwood from yr local timber merchant place approx 20mm by 10mm, and lengths as required or available: these will be the outside frame of the secondary DG: you'll need to work out which will be the best way to cut the various lengths to ensure best utilisation of the lengths of wood you buy.
Machine a groove about 8mm deep and 4mm wide into the strips.
I used a router in a self made jig to keep everything straight and the router tool/groove firmly centered across the 10mm width of the strip. 8 mm seems about the right depth: enough for gluing it up while not too deep into the 20mm full depth to weaken the wood.
Cut the strips into top/bottom/sides cutting mitres at corners making sure everything is square.
Before/as you cut mark up each section's faces as side 1 and side 2 to ensure when you assemble all the strips are the same way round (ie all side2's facing to the front for example)
Buy a piece of 3mm float glass sized to fit allowing for the depth of the grooves in the strips plus some clearance. (you'll need a 4mm groove for 3mm glass - you cannot get away with 3mm slot)
Dry/test assemble edges to glass to check for fit etc
Apply PVA glue into the grooves and to the mitre faces.
Assemble everything and clamp up with a frame strap clamp ensuring its all square etc (I think that's what they are called)
Clean off excess glue with damp rag (for PVA glue)
Once glued I found I needed to gently sand the corners of the assembly where the wood joins were not quite perfect and flat: mainly because the strip wood was not exactly the same size to start with.
Gently/lightly run round glass edge with a chisel to remove any excess glue now hardened
Paint frame assembly as required.
Stick self adhesive foam insulation strip to back of assembly to take up any unevenness of the window frame face and provide a seal.
Screw assembly complete onto window frame (doesn't need to be too tight):If the groove is 8mm deep that leaves 12mm width available to the wood edge to drill your locating screw holes through.
This all need careful measurement. On one I was doing where all the spacings were tight in an alcove which itself was not square I did all the initial measure up/dry/test assemblies using/cutting up a piece of hardboard as the "glass" which, once right, I could use as the template for the glass size - it's cheaper than getting the glass size wrong.
I've done a couple of glass DIY secondary glazing units for more permanent installation....rather a long drawn out proceedure, you wouldn't want to do this on many frames! as follows:
Measure up size of secondary DG required to get the outside length (2 sides+top+bottom)
Get some strips of hardwood from yr local timber merchant place approx 20mm by 10mm, and lengths as required or available: these will be the outside frame of the secondary DG: you'll need to work out which will be the best way to cut the various lengths to ensure best utilisation of the lengths of wood you buy.
Machine a groove about 8mm deep and 4mm wide into the strips.
I used a router in a self made jig to keep everything straight and the router tool/groove firmly centered across the 10mm width of the strip. 8 mm seems about the right depth: enough for gluing it up while not too deep into the 20mm full depth to weaken the wood.
Cut the strips into top/bottom/sides cutting mitres at corners making sure everything is square.
Before/as you cut mark up each section's faces as side 1 and side 2 to ensure when you assemble all the strips are the same way round (ie all side2's facing to the front for example)
Buy a piece of 3mm float glass sized to fit allowing for the depth of the grooves in the strips plus some clearance. (you'll need a 4mm groove for 3mm glass - you cannot get away with 3mm slot)
Dry/test assemble edges to glass to check for fit etc
Apply PVA glue into the grooves and to the mitre faces.
Assemble everything and clamp up with a frame strap clamp ensuring its all square etc (I think that's what they are called)
Clean off excess glue with damp rag (for PVA glue)
Once glued I found I needed to gently sand the corners of the assembly where the wood joins were not quite perfect and flat: mainly because the strip wood was not exactly the same size to start with.
Gently/lightly run round glass edge with a chisel to remove any excess glue now hardened
Paint frame assembly as required.
Stick self adhesive foam insulation strip to back of assembly to take up any unevenness of the window frame face and provide a seal.
Screw assembly complete onto window frame (doesn't need to be too tight):If the groove is 8mm deep that leaves 12mm width available to the wood edge to drill your locating screw holes through.
This all need careful measurement. On one I was doing where all the spacings were tight in an alcove which itself was not square I did all the initial measure up/dry/test assemblies using/cutting up a piece of hardboard as the "glass" which, once right, I could use as the template for the glass size - it's cheaper than getting the glass size wrong.
Feltwell
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CatherineB said:
Point 1 - Yes, it's possible, but the magnetic tape is quite soft and does tend to deform slightly if you're not very careful when cutting it, plus it tends to stretch slightly when you're sticking the last trimmed piece in place. I think it would be difficult to mitre them successfully. I mitred the wooden strips, but you get plenty of opportunity to try those in position before pinning them in place. The magnetic tape once stuck is stuck for good - it's nigh-on impossible to get it off. So you'd have one chance to get it right! Offering it up before you take the backing strip off is all well and good but as I said, it does seem to stretch a bit.
Point 2 - Yes, I'm planning on painting the steel strip. I can't see that it will do any great harm!
Point 3 - What can I say to that except :wink:
:roll:d49xc (doesn't really trip off the tongue that, does it?) - sounds interesting, and more permanent! Trouble is I have some very large sashes, a single pane of glass would just be too heavy - the acrylic is heavy enough! I'm actually quite glad to have the acrylic, as I've 3 young kids - if they do fall against a window (our windows start close to the floor) then less chance of breaking the glass & doing themselves harm.
HeatherJ
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Very informative thread - thank you for the ideas! I'll have to show this to hubby and see what he thinks.
I have never, ever seen secondary glazing put inside in a building around here, but that probably just indicates that I don't get out enough I only ever see (occasionally) storm windows, a sheet of clear glass to protect art glass or the dreaded triple-track put on the outside of windows. I suppose I wonder if there is a reason for that that I would hate to discover first-hand...
I have never, ever seen secondary glazing put inside in a building around here, but that probably just indicates that I don't get out enough
I only ever see (occasionally) storm windows, a sheet of clear glass to protect art glass or the dreaded triple-track put on the outside of windows. I suppose I wonder if there is a reason for that that I would hate to discover first-hand...My 2p'th worth...
I had some experience with getting permanent secondary glazing fitted in spring (thread around here somewhere with pics).
Costs from the major suppliers (Anglia and Everest) were quite high (£3500-3800 for 6 windows) but given a steady "that's more than I have" response the prices fell. Even then it was too much but having the job on their books meant I got a great price when the Everest sales person was missing his target and was able to simply sign the order (£1500) and get them fitted. The fitting took a bit less than a day and left me with some painting to do but nothing else.
I also got a self measured, supply only cost from these people http://secondaryglazing.com/main.htm which was (£1300).
They have a video on their site which is quite informative, it's not that slick but in some ways I find that quite endearing. I suspect the end product would have been equal to the professional fitting I got but a little more effort on my part.
The obvious advantages are they remain in place all year around offering sound insulation, but they're openable when ever suits and you don't need to find somewhere to store them. They're K glass which reflects heat back into the room. They're glass so cleaning is easy and there is no need to worry about scratching.
The obvious disadvantages are there is a more noticeable frame and they're more bulky to accommodate the spring balances.
I found that glaziers would only supply 4mm float glass as the minimum thickness. Anything within 80cm (?) of the floor level should be toughened to comply with building regs. For safety sake I wouldn't use standard float if you intend to remove/replace the panes in spring and autumn and store them somewhere. I'd sooner spend a few quid replacing the glass if I were clumsy than a trip to A&E if I slipped or someone knocked into the stored panes YMMV.
I had some experience with getting permanent secondary glazing fitted in spring (thread around here somewhere with pics).
Costs from the major suppliers (Anglia and Everest) were quite high (£3500-3800 for 6 windows) but given a steady "that's more than I have" response the prices fell. Even then it was too much but having the job on their books meant I got a great price when the Everest sales person was missing his target and was able to simply sign the order (£1500) and get them fitted. The fitting took a bit less than a day and left me with some painting to do but nothing else.
I also got a self measured, supply only cost from these people http://secondaryglazing.com/main.htm which was (£1300).
They have a video on their site which is quite informative, it's not that slick but in some ways I find that quite endearing. I suspect the end product would have been equal to the professional fitting I got but a little more effort on my part.
The obvious advantages are they remain in place all year around offering sound insulation, but they're openable when ever suits and you don't need to find somewhere to store them. They're K glass which reflects heat back into the room. They're glass so cleaning is easy and there is no need to worry about scratching.
The obvious disadvantages are there is a more noticeable frame and they're more bulky to accommodate the spring balances.
I found that glaziers would only supply 4mm float glass as the minimum thickness. Anything within 80cm (?) of the floor level should be toughened to comply with building regs. For safety sake I wouldn't use standard float if you intend to remove/replace the panes in spring and autumn and store them somewhere. I'd sooner spend a few quid replacing the glass if I were clumsy than a trip to A&E if I slipped or someone knocked into the stored panes YMMV.
d49xc
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I'm going to have a go making up some units of perpsex/acrylic D.Glazing
What thickness of perspex did you lot go for? The 3mm thickness looks a bit on the heavy side to be used simply 'stuck' with the magnetic and steel tape (1.5m *1.0m by 3mm thick works out at around 5Kg - it's 3kg for the 2mm thickness)
What thickness of perspex did you lot go for? The 3mm thickness looks a bit on the heavy side to be used simply 'stuck' with the magnetic and steel tape (1.5m *1.0m by 3mm thick works out at around 5Kg - it's 3kg for the 2mm thickness)
Feltwell
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I used 3mm. Even that is quite bendy - I think 2mm would be a bit too thin. On the big pane in my bay window it's arranged so the sheet rests on the window cill to take it's weight, so the magnetic pull is only keeping it against the frame, not carrying the weight.
As that window is extremely draughty, I may put a few clips round the edge just as extra security against it coming unstuck on a very windy day. Once I've renovated & draught-proofed that window they should become redundant.
As that window is extremely draughty, I may put a few clips round the edge just as extra security against it coming unstuck on a very windy day. Once I've renovated & draught-proofed that window they should become redundant.