when is a listed building so damaged that it is delisted ?

[skier-hughes]

The fundamental problem is the front wall - to rebuild the whole building one has to build over the front wall which involves closing the street, affecting neighbouring properties/businesses and adding 20% + to the cost such that it is currently an uneconomic proposition - if the front wall could be knocked and rebuilt then we would save the 20% and the rebuild becomes viable

We would be happy to rebuild the facia the same as before - after all from a heritage point of view, if we are being asked to rebuild the interior so that it looked like what it was before then what is the difference if we do the same with the facia which wasn't actually burnt down

What is better - that we have a building that looks like how it looked from the front and then certain features are restored internally or a wreck of a site which is sitting there currently in limbo ?

As I see it, the CO will not be interested particualrly in the rebuild costs, but in preserving the part of the building that remains.
As the listing relates to the front and the front is the only part that remains, preserving that as it is will be very important.
Most people realise that taking on a listed building is not like buying any other home, you have certain duties to the building itself, whereas I feel for you in the fact that you have lost your home, the fact that you took on a listed building with what that entails, including financially is something you have to live with now.
Although it may not be financially viable for yourself to rebuild, selling what remains and letting someone else do it may be the best option for the building.

 

[garnett]

Hello All

A couple of observations from a Conservation Officer.

First we can make the owner repair the building. I have had a spate of arson in our area and have had several cases like this. I find that a s215 notice for untidy land is better than a Listed Building repairs notice.

There is another spanner that could bre thrown in the works here. My Conservation Officer collegues will be aware that there has been a recent high court case East Riding of Yorkshire v Hobson 18 April 2008 where a part of a listed building was demolished in order to rebuild it. The council went for enforcement and eventually ended up in the high court where the coulcils appeal was dismissed.

Unfortunately it may well be relevant here.

T

 

[AMc]

Sorry to hear about the fire, I'm glad no one was hurt.

So the question is - does anybody have any experience as to when a listed building has been so badly damaged that it is uneconomic to rebuild and one can apply for it to be delisted

To return to your original question, I think the answer has to be to talk to your conservation officer and if the building is truly beyond saving then apply to have the listing removed. I doubt that your economic circumstances are going to make a lot of difference to that decision, there are plenty of listed buildings in very serious states of disrepair and on the at risk register but the owners are not allowed to knock them down. If affordability were the only criteria then we'd be losing a lot more buildings of historic importance as the potential for the unscrupulous to take advantage of that loophole would be overwhelming; not that I'm putting you in that camp but you must see there would be a temptation to some to plead poverty, swing a wrecking ball and end up with a valuable development plot.

Is any way to get help with the additional costs involved so that you can afford to move forward and the fabric is preserved?
Have you asked your CO about grant help or other local or national groups who might be able to assist?

 

[Stephen]

I think it is dangerous to jump to any conclusions about the specific circumstances in this case.

It is possible that any one of the many listed building owners here could have an unfortunate event happen that is not their fault and out of their control entirely but that results in substantial loss of their building. How many can honestly say they have adequate cover for all eventualites and will have sufficient finance for the full rebuild? I suspect not all and perhaps not many.

Whilst a Council (in the form of a CO) does have certain powers there is only so much one can do if the money is simply not available. It is certainly worth having a detailed chat with the CO and explore the possibilities of grant funding (but grant bodies would want the detail of why the finance is not available).

It is all very well for someone (CO or anyone else) to simply say that because you bought a listed building you must suffer the consequences when events like this happen, but the reality is that if the money is simply not available then the work will not happen.

There are examples of remaining parts of buildings being taken down (demolish is rather an emotive term!) and replica structures rebuilt using the original material where possible (e.g. much of Uppark is a replica - not that I am suggesting the situation is comparable). In some situations the fact is that either such work takes place in this manner or the site remains derelict for the foreseeable future. A CO can correct me if I am wrong but apart from making sure the site is safe, not deteriorating and generally maintained they do not have the powers to insist on rebuilding. In theory you could walk away and leave it a 'romantic ruin' in the streetscape.

If the money can be found to cover the additional cost of keeping the wall in place and rebuilding behind that would be ideal, but the question is where does the money come from.

An alternative may be to take down and rebuild as is being discussed here.

Another alternative may be to keep the wall and have a reduced or different scheme behind that may be cheaper to build and therefore bring the total cost within the budget available. Although I am not a fan of facadism, it may be a viable option here.

PPG15 does allow for the financial circumstances to be considered, but these should not outweigh other factors. Therefore it is not necessarily appropriate (or helpful) for a CO to take an absolute standpoint that totally ignores the financial realities and does nothing to help move the situation forward.

As already said by others the best thing is to have a discussion with the CO and perhaps include English Heritage as it seems likely that they might need to be involved or consulted anyway.

Stephen

 

[Schoolmarm]

Are there any photographs?

 

[garnett]

Hello Stephen

We do actually have very strong powers regarding the reinstatement of listed buildings, but they date back to the days when local councils had money!

With a repairs notice, we could step in and do the neccesary works to make the building wind and water tight and place the costs as a charge on the building. I have done this in one case and it worked and we got the money back when the property was sold. As this is a grade II* building, you may well get a local historic buildings trust to help with repair and sale afterwards.

As previously mentioned, I find the Section 215 notice for untidy land very useful in this type of case. I have just got an unlisted key building in the conservation area restored using one of these. They only allow for a minimal amount of work to make the site tidy but owners see this as wasted money and do the right thing in the end.

I currently have a case where an uninsured cottage has lost its roof due to fire. We have made lots of comprimises to get it back together but we got there in the end.

T

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Applying to delist is the wrong road to go down anyway - the decision on that (as on a decision to list in the first place) will be (the law only allows for it to be) taken purely on matters of architectural and historic interest, not on economic ones. It is unlikely to be delisted if it was listed mainly for the facade, and the facade survives.
If you want to apply an economic test, the only way to do so is to apply for LBC to demolish, when you will also have to show that you have attempted to find a new owner for the building at a price that realistically reflects its current condition.

 

[middi]

Maybe the lesson to be re-learned here, is to make sure that one is not underinsured.

It must be devastating for the owner to be left to pick up the pieces of such a disaster.