What kind of doors for a welsh farmhouse of 1830 - ish.

[showqa]

Hi there all,

I'm new to the forum but would be really interested in your opinions. I've recently moved into a welsh farmhouse of about 1830, made of stone and slate. Over the years there's clearly been a hodge podge of ideas going on, poorly executed too, and although I'm not what you would call a purist I certainly want to rediscover the real charm of the place.

At the moment we have a combination of doors. Some are new picth pine ledge doors. Then there are a couple of very nice aged oak ledge doors, and then we have quite a few repro - Victorian panel doors (plus a couple of nasty B&Q efforts). What would the correct style be for this house?

There is a wonderful cast iron fire insert which has been ripped out and thrown in the barn, the fire bricked up and a radiator put in its place. I'd like to renovate the fire insert, although it's in a shoddy state. Is this really a job for experts? It's a very grand insert, which does seem a bit incongruous for a farmer's dwelling. Any info out there? Thanks a lot folks.

 

[biffvernon]

Welcome aboard.

I don't know that there is a 'correct' door. In 1830 farmhouse doors wold have been made by the local joiner using local timber the same way that his grandfather made them and probably not influenced too much by city fashions. Plank and ledge was the order of the day, with something posher for the front door if the farmer's wife had pretentions.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Biff, would they have the zig zag bracing on? I am wondering for my farm.

 

[Gervase]

Here's a door from a Welsh farmhouse of about 1840 - I know, 10 years too late, but fashions don't change a lot! Generally Welsh farmhouses have short, wide doors with a light over the top, either plain (as here), with a diagonal cross or vertical bars dividing the light into squares.
The doors are of framed plank construction, with ledges going across the uprights of the frame. The lock on this particular door is made of wood (oak) with a steel mechanism.

 

[biffvernon]

"Zig-Zag" is what they call ledged and braced. The ledges are horizontal, the braces are the diagonal bits. I sort of associate ledged and braced with shed doors made out of cheap stuff with the braces adding extra strength. For in the house you use better timber and more care so the extra strength is not needed. I expect that there are plenty of counter examples though.

Counter-boarded is where there are not just three ledges but the whole of the inside face has horizontal boards making the whole door double thickness. Very strong, very draughtproof and typical of church doors.

And then there's the framed plank door. Nice pic, Gervase.

 

[showqa]

Thanks to all. Very interesting - and in fact the lovely oak doors that I mention have large wooden mortice locks on them - very beautiful. I'm assuming that even if they aren't original to this house, they are pretty old and probably sensitive to the house.

It begs the question - what kind of internal doorframes then? Nearly all of the doors have quite heavily moulded architrave - quite ornate. I guess this is wrong and should be replaced with something far less frilly and simpler?

 

[showqa]

Likewise the skirting.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

I suppose it depends how purist you want to be. You could do lots of research into doors from that period in similar properties with a view to recreating something exactly. Or you could try to produce something that you like the look of, in appropriate materials, which is sympathetic to the style and age of the house. Time, money and available resources will play a part in decision-making too.

In best Blue Peter tradition, here's one we made earlier:

The frame was a very simple affair relieved with hand-run stop chamfers, and planted stops.

The quality of the ironwork is very important, as poor detailing here will let down the best woodwork.

More pics on my website.

 

[showqa]

Thanks Andrew. In light of what I've gleaned thus far, I'm certainly going to work along the lines of the cottage door rather than the Victorian four panel, even though that means quite a lot of work in terms of removing frames and having something made that is more appropraite to the style of the door.

What do you folks out there think about the fact that there is a quite elaborate cast iron insert in the barn, which has clearly come out of one of the rooms. Would it be possible for such a fancy piece to be put into a relatively humble farmhouse? The fact that it's in quite a bad state suggests to me that it isn't a new addition that a previous owner bought and then a subsequent owner ripped out.

 

[Moo]

Just a thought about the fireplace:
Is there any chance that it's something that a previous owner (possibly the one that put in the panelled doors and posh architraves?) bought it with the intention of restoring and installing it?

 

[Nemesis]

I live in a relatively humble former farmhouse, and the main rooms had relatively 'fancy' architraves, ie stock late Geo mouldings, and the former parlour a fancyish hobgrate and joinery, including shutters and window surround. Doors in the main rooms are panelled.

Before discounting anything and making changes, I'd do more research. It may be that you can find another house in the locality where some original fittings remain and that will give more clues.

 

[Cloudscape]

We have mostly ledge/brace with "zig-zag", but we do have ledge/brace without zig-zag, and a couple of (probably early Victorian or Georgian) panelled doors. It depends how a house evolved. Also, if local buildings were being altered or demolished, all sorts of items might be re-repurposed, including doors.

I agree with Nemesis. Check houses in the vicinity to see if anyone has more 'original' doors. If a house is listed, I would personally guard against importing any bits of 'history' that don't belong. If not... it's just a question of sourcing doors that suit the house and suit you.

 

[Penners]

I sort of associate ledged and braced with shed doors made out of cheap stuff with the braces adding extra strength.

Biff, isn't it also the case that braces are more likely to be needed if the ledges are very narrow? Wide ledges allow the fixings to spaced farther apart, giving more of a bracing effect on the vertical planks.

 

[biffvernon]

Indeed, and there will be as much variation on the theme as there have been joiners. I'm making a counter-boarded door today, held together with rosehead cut nails and the outer vertical joints covered with reeds.

I notice that Stephen Calloway, in The Elements of Style uses the terms cross-boarded and double-boarded, rather than counter-boarded. And he calls ledges, battens.

 

[showqa]

My house isn't listed. The hamlet in which I live doesn't have another house like this really. There are a couple of bungalows from the 70s, a converted church, a long house and a couple of houses from the early 1900s.

Does anyone know of any decent books, the focus being on Welsh farmhouses? I've managed to find qiute a lot of info on 16th century and English farmhouses, but of course this is quite different from both of those.

Sorry to bombard with questions - but I also have a window issue. Again, a real mix of quarter pane, typical cottage windows (wooden), a few metal windows, some obvious 70's large pane windows, and some truly vile red stained wooden windows that look perhaps 10 years old (complete withmock Georgian front door!!!)

Any advice about the period would be so heplful.

Cheers in advance.

 

[biffvernon]

Does anyone know of any decent books, the focus being on Welsh farmhouses?

Yes, there is a really good book on Welsh houses - but I've forgotton what it's called

 

[Nemesis]

While not a catalogue of architectural styles, this book is invaluable for advice on general approaches to historic smaller Welsh buildings:

http://periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8905

Also see:

http://www.rcahmw.org.uk/vernacular/background.shtml

http://www.rcahmw.org.uk/vernacular/continuing.shtml

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Does anyone know of any decent books, the focus being on Welsh farmhouses?

Yes, there is a really good book on Welsh houses - but I've forgotton what it's called

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Welsh-House-Iorwerth-C-Peate/dp/1861431325

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Precious-Inheritance-Conservation-Vernacular-Buildings/dp/1905960018

http://www.rcahmw.org.uk/vernacular/index.shtml

 

[Nemesis]

Do keep up Hughes and read previous posts.

Humph.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Do keep up Hughes and read previous posts.

Humph.

Um, I don't see any reference to Iowerth Peate's book in previous posts. And you and I were posting almost simultaneously. Humph indeed.