What else are dreams for?

[JoceAndChris]

In the dining room of course! In my opinion, the priorities are absolutely correct. Who wants to sit in a great big open plan kitchen, being watched by your guests, staring at the mess? Not me. I far prefer the old fashioned way of a smaller, private, practical kitchen to contain the chaos and smells of cooking, the dirty choppings and sloppings, and to eat in elegance in a formal room with a view, where nobody knows you've scraped the mould off the jam and rescued the bacon from the cat.
I worry that the shell grotto is slightly overblown, mine is going to be more restrained than that ( I plan to stick it in the underground vaulted rainwater chamber when we get a borehole). And I completely agree with Gareth about the marble floors - the new work to the property, after Gervase Jackson Stops, is just slightly bordering on vulgarity for my taste. I would want to put it back to how he had it.
But the principle saloon, the garden follies with guest rooms, the landscaped gardens, and above all the astonishing facade, one of the great architectural triumphs of the 18thC, make it an incredible deal to my mind.

 

[LadyArowana]

In the dining room of course!

:lol: , no that's needed for the elephants and all the pretty things. I agree that for entertaining it's nice to have a proper formal dining room ( not that I give my guests bacon I have snatched back from the cat......... we don't have a cat ) and to keep the mechanics of food preparation out of sight. It just seems like 9' square would be a little cramped by the time you get a couple of chefs and a posse of waiters in there.

 

[Pford75]

By traditional valuation mechanisms it seems rather expensive.....

At 2367sq.ft and £1.45m it is £612/sq.ft.

According to the Times http://property.timesonline.co.uk/t...icle7033505.ece?token=null&offset=132&page=12
the average price for South Northamptonshire is £199/sq.ft making this property 3 times as expensive for area as the average.

And personally, I find much of the 'renovation' incredibly tacky in the extreme :?

 

[LadyArowana]

By traditional valuation mechanisms it seems rather expensive.....

At 2367sq.ft and £1.45m it is £612/sq.ft.
:?

That's just the main house, the grotto ( with sauna and gym ) and the chapel and other outbuilding, which could be used as guest bedrooms, office etc are additional to that, so maybe closer to the benchmark.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

And personally, I find much of the 'renovation' incredibly tacky in the extreme :?

I agree - if we're talking about the work done by the current owners rather than the original Gervase Jackson-Stops restoration. It's not a fashionable view to criticise what's defended as personal taste, but a knowledge of before 1998 and after does show the difference between discernment and simply throwing money at something.

Here's the dining room (built behind the blank wall in the 1970s) as Gervase J-S left it:


and here's the result of "improving" it:

 

[Pford75]

LadyA - property floorspace valuations (in the UK) only include what is regarded as 'habitable space'. They certainly wouldn't include outbuildings (however ornate) and it would be somewhat debatable as to whether the grotto should be included.

Gareth - am I correct in my understanding that the work done in the 70s was all 'renovation' itself? There is no certainty that what Gervase JS built in the 70s is authentic.....the property guff mentions "recreated from photographs", but it would be great to see how true this is. Suspect that there could have been some artistic license then.

On another point, how far back do LBCs go? Is there a record of the original 70s consent or even better the application? I find some of the 70s work equally tacky - the shell grotto reminds me of a particularly naff shop on Southend seafront that I remember from childhood.....

 

[LadyArowana]

LadyA - property floorspace valuations (in the UK) only include what is regarded as 'habitable space'. They certainly wouldn't include outbuildings (however ornate) and it would be somewhat debatable as to whether the grotto should be included.
.

The "arbours" seem to be more like guest cottages as they have bedroom/ bathroom facilities and would be great places to warehouse noisy teenagers. So I thought they were probably as useful as if they were physically joined to the main residence. Agree with you that inhabiting the grotto might be less that comfy though, although there's no accounting for teenagers who would probably love it.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Gareth - am I correct in my understanding that the work done in the 70s was all 'renovation' itself? There is no certainty that what Gervase JS built in the 70s is authentic.....the property guff mentions "recreated from photographs", but it would be great to see how true this is. Suspect that there could have been some artistic license then.

On another point, how far back do LBCs go? Is there a record of the original 70s consent or even better the application? I find some of the 70s work equally tacky - the shell grotto reminds me of a particularly naff shop on Southend seafront that I remember from childhood.....

All that had ever existed before the 1970s was the central room, the two little end pavilions and the wall linking them (there had never been rooms behind the wall). The "recreation from photographs" is of about 60% of the plasterwork in the central room, which is as authentic as any comparable job. The rest of the interiors were completely new (and in most case were in spaces that hadn't existed before), but in a more appropriate style than the recent transformations wrought in the same rooms.

The shell grotto was G J-S's last improvement (1995) and although it does look like a bit of the funfair, it's fairly close to how the evidence suggests the grandest such genuine 18th century examples were.

 

[Flyfisher]

The shell grotto was G J-S's last improvement (1995) and although it does look like a bit of the funfair, it's fairly close to how the evidence suggests the grandest such genuine 18th century examples were.

. . . such as Scott's Grotto in Ware, Hertfordshire. http://www.scotts-grotto.org/CMS/index.php

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I was thinking more of the Ascot Place grotto in Berkshire:
http://www.bsmgp.org.uk/downloads/Ascot_Place_for_BSMGP.pdf
or Golney House grotto in Bristol:
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=31503
(which both survive because they are practically inaccessible to the public)

 

[Matt Green]

Oh, silly me. A fourth small bedroom in a separate building, above a chapel. Much more practical.

Never was the word "folly" more aptly employed.

You could always put an application in for a block and render lean-to on the south aspect for another bedroom to make it 'proper' 4 bed property and turn the one above the chapel into a wet room with a power shower.

That could put a few quid on the resale value. :twisted:

 

[JoceAndChris]

And personally, I find much of the 'renovation' incredibly tacky in the extreme :?

I agree - if we're talking about the work done by the current owners rather than the original Gervase Jackson-Stops restoration. It's not a fashionable view to criticise what's defended as personal taste, but a knowledge of before 1998 and after does show the difference between discernment and simply throwing money at something.

Here's the dining room (built behind the blank wall in the 1970s) as Gervase J-S left it:
View attachment 1

and here's the result of "improving" it:

I really like the Gervase JS dining room, it's simple and warm. The modernity of the newer one is ill at ease with the rest of it: the whitish walls, marble floor, little recessed lights - bad choices in my view.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I was thinking more of the Ascot Place grotto in Berkshire:
http://www.bsmgp.org.uk/downloads/Ascot_Place_for_BSMGP.pdf
or Golney House grotto in Bristol:
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=31503
(which both survive because they are practically inaccessible to the public)

They're very interesting. I suppose what makes contemporary reaction to the new shell grotto at Horton Menag one of horror/scorn is firstly that it's a reproduction, which is always difficult to pull off, lacking the charm of ancient dust and thought that 18thC fingers worked it. Then, it is a pretty overblown shell grotto, with all those classical statues thrown into the whole - pretty hard to digest if there's no knowledge or interest in Greek myth. And finally, not many people are particularly interested in the personal and creative expression of handicrafts like shell-work, embroidery, print rooms, follies etc. They aren't fashionable and they aren't talked about much. Nice modern day ladies are too busy with Pilates or organic vegetable growing or the television. I think it's a terrible shame that the craftwork that characterised the past is all but dead, and I applaud anyone who tries to bring these things alive again. So a huge round of applause for whoever decided to stick a shell grotto in the undercroft at Horton, even if it is a bit over the top, and I'd much rather have that in mine than the Rayburn.

 

[Penners]

The shell grotto in the Abbey Gradens, Tresco, Scilly, isn't large, but it's very attractive.

If you've never visited these gardens, do put them on your list. I think they're the loveliest "exotic" gardens that I've ever seen, with plants from many parts of the world.

You can take a trip by helicopter from Penzance. But be warned - Tresco is damned expensive. Prices are high on the island, and the special day-return helicopter flight will cost you about £100.

 

[JoceAndChris]

That's a really lovely piece of work, thanks for posting. Next to the sea, as a garden feature, shell work has a special relevance.
I'd love to go to both Cornwall and the Scilly Isles - they're both equally unfamiliar to me. Thanks for the recommendation!