what do i need to know about doors?

[charlie-ia]

much as im itching to start ripping down the boards and uncovering the walls, upon careful reflection i think new doors are slightly more urgent. (do tell me if im wrong!)

there are two external doors, both rotten and difficult to close, with rusted broken hinges and bits missing, so i think it is a case of replace, rather than repair.

is it just a case of take down the old ones, knock out the old frames and fit new? planeing to fit and reapiring any damage to the doorway?

is it best just to go to the local equivalent of wickes and pick a suitable one we like?

can you talk me through step by step? Hopefully this is an easy one!

 

[Mark]

check that there is a lintel - ie that the door frame isnt holding anything up - before knocking it out.

 

[NT]

Pretty much. You might want to pay attention to the stylistic details of course. And of course not all doors are good for exterior use, lightweights like cardboard core doors would not be too secure.

The old frame if well rotten can be levered off using a bar, but put something under the heel of the bar to avoid it damaging brickwork.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Hanging_a_door

and

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Door_Security


NT

 

[Nemesis]

Actually, I'd avoid Wickes, and their ilk, see if there is a local joiner who will make and fit doors and frames.

It might cost a little more but you can have something you want made rather than something bland and off the peg, which might not actually fit the space avialable easily. You can choose a wood which might last longer too.

 

[Mark]

depending on what is going to need doing inside you might want to hold off or do something robust but cheap..
It would be annoying to have nice doors/frame fitted then have lumps taken out of them by equipment/materials going in and out

 

[NT]

in which case a sheet of stirling board would do teh job

 

[Penners]

Charlie - you say that the doors are rotten, but you don't mention the frames. I certainly wouldn't rip them out unless it's absolutely necessary.

If you decide the frames are OK, then of course you'll need to get new doors to fit the frames. This may mean bespoke ones.

If the frames have to go, then the trick when replacing them is not to do so until you've found the doors you want to buy. It's easier/less costly to construct a frame to suit the size of the door than vice versa. Just make sure that your chosen door size leaves enough room within the existing door reveal in the wall to allow for the framing, without having to hack away more wall.

As has been said above, do be sure not to skimp on your main external doors. They need to be solid, strong and weather-tight. You should also be careful to buy doors that suit the style of your property - the choice of front door in particular has a major effect on the overall character of your house.

By the way, I enitrely agree with you that sound external doors are a priority. Get them in during the summer, then when winter comes you'll be draught-free and secure.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Nemesis]

Frames mostly rot at the bottoms, and new pieces can be scarfed in.

I'm surprised that doors are totally beyond repair too, but if they are anything historic then a like for like replacement would be best.

 

[charlie-ia]

thanks for all that so far. "door feet"-marvelous idea

I think we're going to go for plank doors, painted either red or green.
stable door with a big window on the kitchen, and just a small window on the front door. I like that door of "yours" very much nemesis.

We will take a chance on damaging the doors when we do the inside of the house later, or they'll never get done. We may even need to take them off again when we get to sorting the walls out. they'll look authenticaly distressed then!

Assuming there is a lintle, how long will it take approximately to do? can we easily do both the same day?

 

[charlie-ia]

a bit like these perhaps
http://www.museumsofmayo.com/clogher/clogher10.jpg

http://images.inmagine.com/168nwm/brandxpictures/x159/bxp44643.jpg

 

[charlie-ia]

I was just assuming that it would be easier to fit new frames at the same time as the new door.

Ive fitted a new internal door to an old frame once. the hinges didnt fit the old spaces, the screw holes were all in the wrong places, and the catch needed moving and it all turned into a bit of a palaver.

I guess that the frames are repairable (what isnt when you look at it?), but how good theyd be i dont know. bit of rot, bit of worm, bit of damage. nothing shocking. Match the rest of the house. Isnt it better to put new ones in?

Its funny, i was thinking of the sash windows as intricate machinery, with all the pieces as seperate parts to be taken care of and cherished, yet the door seems to be just that. a door. frame and locks and everything.

 

[Penners]

I was just assuming that it would be easier to fit new frames at the same time as the new door. Isnt it better to put new ones in?

Good conservation practice is always to conserve and repair wherever possible. However, only you can decide whether this is possible, based on your own assessment of the condition of the existing.

Is the house listed? If so, then my statement above isn't quite accurate. Only you and the Conservation Officer can decide.

As to the time the job will take, this depends very much on what decision your ultimately make about the frames. It must be said that complete replacement will probably be quicker than repair - but if it's your own time, wouldn't you prefer to take a bit longer to repair rescuable fabric?

If you are replacing, then assuming you have the door and all materials to hand, you should probably be able to take out the old and install the new in one day per door. It might be quicker if you don't hit any snags - it might be slower if you do.

 

[NT]

Isnt it better to put new ones in?

Its funny how perspectives change. Once youve been at it for months you wont be asking questions like this, youll just want to know the quickest fix, and sod everything else.

The quickest and cheapest solution is usually to cut out any rot, fill and paint. If you want to renew every part of the place for the sake of it, then I hope youve been saving up.


NT

 

[charlie-ia]

wouldn't you prefer to take a bit longer to repair rescuable fabric?

but you have to draw the line somewhere or youll never get done.

wouldnt it be likely that the doorframes wouldv been replaced many times already? How do i know theyre worth worrying about?

the front room is classic seventies, including hardboard pictures of plank panneling covering the walls and busy swirly brown nylon carpet. this is part of the house's history too. we shall record and photograph it, with a sample of the carpet in the scrap book (theres a new bit in one of the cupboards, along with a roll of the 70s wallpaper (which has woodworm!))

Im not arguing, just looking for guidance on where to draw my own personal line. i know it all depends.


What common jobs/areas would you suggest would benefit particular care? (im not saying botch or rush the other jobs)

which jobs can you just get on and do? Like replacing the wiring perhaps. it has to be done a certain way, and its not origional anyway. ok, you have to take account of what else it will affect but thats the same whatever you do.

 

[NT]

wouldn't you prefer to take a bit longer to repair rescuable fabric?

but you have to draw the line somewhere or youll never get done.

wouldnt it be likely that the doorframes wouldv been replaced many times already? How do i know theyre worth worrying about? [/qoute]

If the frame is nothing special I'd just do whichever's quickest.

Im not arguing, just looking for guidance on where to draw my own personal line. i know it all depends.

yes - on time, money, quality of original, etc

What common jobs/areas would you suggest would benefit particular care? (im not saying botch or rush the other jobs)

which jobs can you just get on and do?

all the basic functional stuff, id leave any nonessentials till the important stuff is done.

Like replacing the wiring perhaps. it has to be done a certain way, and its not origional anyway. ok, you have to take account of what else it will affect but thats the same whatever you do.

If its old and has character, eg round switches, those can be incorped into new wiring by using relays to isolate them from the mains. Its fairly simple to do.

If its in a dreadful state, unusable, you can cut it off at the fusebox and feed the box from a 12v supply, and use 12v bulbs. Only worth doing if it has keepable character though, or if you dont want to spend on a rewire for some of the house.


NT

 

[Nemesis]

It's most likely that old door frames with have some simple moulding, and also be of better timber than modern ones.

 

[NT]

Theres a chap on ebay that sells 100cuft of oak for £200+vat delivered, might be useful for you. It comes in assorted sizes rough sawn, and probably contains significant sapwood, but should be good for interior use.


NT

 

[Penners]

Im not arguing, just looking for guidance on where to draw my own personal line. i know it all depends.

Yes - 'it all depends' is about right! And it's a dilemma that we all face every day.

Of course I recognise that the door frame may have been replaced many times already. And in mentioning good conservation practice, I also recognise that you have to establish your own set of priorities about that.

Nobody can tell you definitively what to repair and what to replace (unless the house is listed, in which case the CO will have a view). That has to be a matter for your own judgement based on your own priorities, and your assessment of the degree of deterioration of each detail.

But it's worth remembering that period properties have a special charm - and that charm arises not just from the grand sweep of the architecture, but also from a thousand small details. So whenever you do have to replace, rather than repair, it's in your own interest to replace like-with-like. That way you preserve the all-important character of the building.

Sorry - that sounds like a rather arrogant lecture, and it's not meant to be! Just expressing a point-of-view.

 

[charlie-ia]

yes, its difficult to get tone of voice across when typing.

It's most likely that old door frames with have some simple moulding, and also be of better timber than modern ones.

AH Ha! youve just answered the question thats been bugging me about "how do i know its a genuine origional thingumybob"
i bet that goes for most of anything i could find in the house!

So whenever you do have to replace, rather than repair, it's in your own interest to replace like-with-like. That way you preserve the all-important character of the building.

that sounds very reasonable.

its not listed, but i recon its much older than the 100yrs the estate agent tells us. theres cracks in the render that clearly show 2 windows moved verticaly, a lower roof and a window that would now be between floors bricked up. within the last 20 years it has been "done up" according to a neighbour. we think that refers to the concreting done indoors, and roofrepairs on the house and barn. uptairs has been boarded out and carpeted, with plasterboard internal walls.

looking at the recent work, and in the 70s, we think mostly the work done has consisted of covering over what was there before, so we're looking forward to a few suprises!

 

[Toby Newell]

Charlie

From a purely logistical point of view I would agree with a previous poster and leave the doors and frames to last. Beef up the current door with baording as a temp measure.

I am a wood restorer/French polisher and spend an inordinate amount of my professional time repairing and refinishing NEW doors that have been ruined by various workmen working around them. It is virtually impossible for you or your helpers be they paid or unpaid NOT to damage your door and frame during major building/restoration works, unless of course you have the means to employ a French polisher full time to shout out "mind the bloody door" every five minutes (which doesn't work anyway)

You will probably find unless the frame is knackered it is worth saving as (as has been said) it could possible be of better quality than current offerings. Make sure it is fixed firmly, you can always put in extra fixings and cover these with new architrave/doorstops etc if they have been too badly damaged. The very general rule is carpentry (in my experience) of 1960s or earlier tends to be of much better quality broadly speaking than that afterwards (esp 1970's which can be v. naff due to the new fascination with DIY!) and worth keeping if you can.

Regards

Toby Newell