Welsh Cottage Interiors

[Alex]

Hello Everyone,
Hope you didn't think that I was trying to tell people that that was the way they should restore their Welsh cottages, just wanted to let people know about a programme that I thought people may find of interest. I just took it as an entertainment programme, especially as it was shown at 7.30, a time when the BBC normally screen their entertainment stuff. I assumed that people would then make up their own minds as to wether they liked it or not. When I watched the first screening, I didn't like the way the lime supplier was portrayed, as a company selling shoddy goods and I did tell him that as he is also my lime supplier. Unfortunetly people who don't know him will now have the wrong impression of this company but this is what the mass media seem to be able to do. I know it is probably not the case for PP forum users, as we all seem to know about using the correct building materials etc but if by watching the Pembrokeshire farm programme it stops just one person using cement and modern materials on an old property, then surely this has to be a good thing ?
Its slightly of the thread but BBC Wales also made a programme called Coal House, it was filmed at an old ironworks that is owned by CADW and is now on the edge of a town that is a World Heritage Site. It was one of those programmes where families were asked to volunteer to live in original 18th century ironworkers cottages for a month, complete with flagstone floors no running water etc, just to see how they would manage. I'm not a fan of these types of programmes but I did watch it as the cottages are fairly close to me and I had a friend who once worked there as a tour guide and I have spent many happy hours there being the only visitor on the tour. The programme become compulsive viewing for many people and as a result visitors to the Iron Works seem to have tripled in number and when I visited in the summer, for the first time ever, I had to queue up to go into the cottages. So maybe there is a case for saying that this type of programme does do some good as well.
Again, I hope I did not offend anybody as that wasn't my intention, Alex.

 

[Jon Maine]

Is there any way of watching the first series? I have looked for it on dvd but no joy.

I have a copy somewhere I bought from Griff at a Save talk, If I can track it down I may be able to get you a copy.

 

[Jon Maine]

Hello Everyone,
Hope you didn't think that I was trying to tell people that that was the way they should restore their Welsh cottages, just wanted to let people know about a programme that I thought people may find of interest. I just took it as an entertainment programme, especially as it was shown at 7.30, a time when the BBC normally screen their entertainment stuff. I assumed that people would then make up their own minds as to wether they liked it or not. When I watched the first screening, I didn't like the way the lime supplier was portrayed, as a company selling shoddy goods and I did tell him that as he is also my lime supplier. Unfortunetly people who don't know him will now have the wrong impression of this company but this is what the mass media seem to be able to do. I know it is probably not the case for PP forum users, as we all seem to know about using the correct building materials etc but if by watching the Pembrokeshire farm programme it stops just one person using cement and modern materials on an old property, then surely this has to be a good thing ?
Its slightly of the thread but BBC Wales also made a programme called Coal House, it was filmed at an old ironworks that is owned by CADW and is now on the edge of a town that is a World Heritage Site. It was one of those programmes where families were asked to volunteer to live in original 18th century ironworkers cottages for a month, complete with flagstone floors no running water etc, just to see how they would manage. I'm not a fan of these types of programmes but I did watch it as the cottages are fairly close to me and I had a friend who once worked there as a tour guide and I have spent many happy hours there being the only visitor on the tour. The programme become compulsive viewing for many people and as a result visitors to the Iron Works seem to have tripled in number and when I visited in the summer, for the first time ever, I had to queue up to go into the cottages. So maybe there is a case for saying that this type of programme does do some good as well.
Again, I hope I did not offend anybody as that wasn't my intention, Alex.

Alex there is a Jungle drum which beats to some of us who are in the know, no offence taken from your post as the info which is incorrect is in the third part which neither of us has seen.

It does raise the question though why a late technique which is unproven has been replicated with negligable research and then its failure blamed upon reputable companies.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I've just watched it on iplayer, and without wanting to over-defend it (and especially the contrived father / son shenanigans), it seemed to stand head and shoulders above similar recent programmes (which I admit isn't saying much) in presenting generally good conservation philosophy (if not always practice) without whinging about how this, that and the other wouldn't be allowed, or dragging in reputable conservation specialists who make "good television" because their attitudes and mannerisms invite ridicule from the Great Uninformed.
I'd like to see the first series.

 

[Alex]

Hello Jon, cant agree with you more about the treatment of the lime supplier.
Only mentioned the "farm" programme because the original series had been broadcast again in the late summer here and showed more about the interior of the house as that was what the original question was about. I also mentioned the two S4C programmes, as I actually found them to be more interesting, Y Ty Cymreig in particular, I have to watch it with the subtitles on because my Welsh is not that great. I havent seen anything like it on English TV, so its difficult to explain what its like but plenty of houses in their original condition and have managed to escape the modernisation of the 60's 70's and 80's. Don't know if you have ever seen or heard of it, if you are interested, let me know and I'll message you when I see it advertised.
Alex

 

[Gervase]

I've just had sight of the independent report on a sample of the 'defective' mix submitted by Griff Rhys Jones's builder, and I'm absolutely appalled that Ty Mawr were 'named and shamed' in such an unfair and cavalier fashion on a nationally-broadcast television programme.
The analyst concluded that the lime used was an NHL3.5 hydraulic lime which showed signs of having been gauged with gypsum. One of the key reasons for failure, based on the sample submitted for analysis, was simply that it had not been given a chance to carbonise completely.
It was the builder's decision to specify NHL3.5 instead of NHL5, and presumably the builder's decision not to shelter the grouting on the roof before it fully carbonated. In the circumstances, it's a testament to the qualities of Singleton Birch lime that two-thirds of the roof grouting remains intact and has passed muster.
What is interesting is that the same builder subsequently refused to allow any of Ty Mawr's staff to come down to inspect the work on site after Griff Rhys Jones contacted them to tell them his grouting had failed, that she also refused to say what mix was used, what aggregate was used and whether it was gauged with anything else, and that she was unable to say if the grouting had been applied in May or September, as no schedules of work were kept. :roll:
The BBC version of the programme has subsequently been re-edited to reflect some of this, but there is still the assertion to camera that Ty Mawr supplied sub-standard materials and the claim that this was corroborated by an independent analysis. Both are factually wrong and hugely injurious to the reputation of a company that has done more than most to promote good practice in restoration and conservation.
I can't speak for Nigel and Joyce Gervis at Ty Mawr, but if I were in their position (particularly as they have already lost some business as a result of the broadcast), I would not only be hopping mad - I would also be instructing m'learned friends. Realistically, however, taking on a BBC-commissioned production company for defamation is probably a faster way of getting rid of a few hundred thousand than trying to do up an old farm in Pembrokeshire!

 

[Schoolmarm]

So could they sue the woman builder instead?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I've just watched it on iplayer, and without wanting to over-defend it (and especially the contrived father / son shenanigans), it seemed to stand head and shoulders above similar recent programmes (which I admit isn't saying much) in presenting generally good conservation philosophy (if not always practice) without whinging about how this, that and the other wouldn't be allowed, or dragging in reputable conservation specialists who make "good television" because their attitudes and mannerisms invite ridicule from the Great Uninformed.
I'd like to see the first series.

I've just finished watching the rest of series two, and apart from Griff asking "is it because we got a duff batch?" and getting the very clear response "no, it just hasn't been left for long enough without the weather getting at it", the lime roof saga seem to have played less part in what's available on iplayer than in what was seen by those who watched the series for the first time on BBC Wales.

I suspect that if you saw a roof being grouted in the 1880s, you might not have seen quite so much preciousness being displayed about the practice (and the quality of the ingredients, and the end result) as seemed to be expected.

The end result (which is what matters to most viewers) at least suggested a comfortable, liveable house, mostly traditionally repaired, that didn't require you to put on a crinoline and stop complaining about the cold and damp. I think it's quite a lot better than, say, "Victorian Farm" which goes out of its way to emphasise the rigour and hardship and, worst of all, creates the impression that traditional methods are something only people desperately in love with the past would, could, or should ever countenance today.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Bravo - well said!

Contrastingly, I just watched the Victorian Farm for Christmas special, which amuses me not least for the barely disguised contempt the two boys have for one another. OH NO how are we going to get through THIS crisis is the constant theme- so contrived. And I agree with you that it removes the methodology of the past into something completely removed from our own lives, which is just not true.

 

[Jon Maine]

I've just watched it on iplayer, and without wanting to over-defend it (and especially the contrived father / son shenanigans), it seemed to stand head and shoulders above similar recent programmes (which I admit isn't saying much) in presenting generally good conservation philosophy (if not always practice) without whinging about how this, that and the other wouldn't be allowed, or dragging in reputable conservation specialists who make "good television" because their attitudes and mannerisms invite ridicule from the Great Uninformed.
I'd like to see the first series.

I've just finished watching the rest of series two, and apart from Griff asking "is it because we got a duff batch?" and getting the very clear response "no, it just hasn't been left for long enough without the weather getting at it", the lime roof saga seem to have played less part in what's available on iplayer than in what was seen by those who watched the series for the first time on BBC Wales.

I suspect that if you saw a roof being grouted in the 1880s, you might not have seen quite so much preciousness being displayed about the practice (and the quality of the ingredients, and the end result) as seemed to be expected.

The end result (which is what matters to most viewers) at least suggested a comfortable, liveable house, mostly traditionally repaired, that didn't require you to put on a crinoline and stop complaining about the cold and damp. I think it's quite a lot better than, say, "Victorian Farm" which goes out of its way to emphasise the rigour and hardship and, worst of all, creates the impression that traditional methods are something only people desperately in love with the past would, could, or should ever countenance today.

This was an edited version the first version broadcast put the blame at Ty Mawrs door.

 

[Jon Maine]

So could they sue the woman builder instead?

The builder in question appears to have got techniques and mixes wrong for both the roof work and internal work according to analysis of the failed products. Imo in short she should be hung out to dry as if this is what she has been up to it undermines the conversion of other people to lime because they consider it to be a material problem rather than the practicioner using it. Although it does sound like the English series was far more honest than the Welsh one.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Bravo - well said!

Contrastingly, I just watched the Victorian Farm for Christmas special, which amuses me not least for the barely disguised contempt the two boys have for one another. OH NO how are we going to get through THIS crisis is the constant theme- so contrived. And I agree with you that it removes the methodology of the past into something completely removed from our own lives, which is just not true.

And they ground their flour for the winter in May!

 

[Gervase]

It was quite a drastic edit compared with the previously broadcast version - largely, I think, because it finally dawned on the production company's what the potential consequences of such a major piece of defamation could be (thanks, possibly, to a bit of advice from the BBC's legal team).
The damage has been done, however, and Ty Mawr has suffered unfairly because a perfectly good product supplied by them was not used in the correct manner, and the Gervises and their staff are still extremely upset by the whole affair, which has cost them financially at a time when all companies involved in the building trade are suffering.
Suing the builder wouldn't achieve much, as my understanding is that she doesn't have insurance. And for Ty Mawr to bring any action would involve major legal costs for them which may not be recoverable. Poor beggars.
Blame shouldn't just lie with Gill Wickenden, the builder, but with Judith Winnan, Nick Shearman and Simon Mansfield, the producers, who appear to have forgotten the basics of defamation.

 

[Jon Maine]

I agree that the BBC have a lot to answer for, they I presume either rely on the fact that a libel action is to expensive for most to consider or just operate upon ignorance possibly a mixture of both.

Perhaps the Gervises should complain to the broadcasting standards authority because from the evidence I believe that is in existence it should at least force a public apology by the BBC.

But even ignoring personal defamation it bothers me that lime itself has been portrayed as the culprit rather than inappropriate use by a builder who claims to be an expert but is so poor they cant follow simple instructions and guages or even meet their statutory obligation of being insured. (although would liability insurance cover numptiness?).

 

[headgear]

The house is at the slightly grander end I should think, as it's 2 storeys. I would love to get an idea of how it might have looked originally. It was rendered with horrible cement in the late seventies, and looks like a pair of 50s council houses from the road at the moment. The nasty plastic windows don't help either. My priority is low-impact, sustainability and energy efficiency,

Have a look at the heating bills and think forward for potential rises in carbon fuel prices

but I want to do it in a way that is sympathetic to how it would have been.[/quote]

Are you really prepared to live at ambient temperature with a bit of a wood fire in one room? These houses were never built to be occupied at 20 deg C!

Be warned! Ignore your surveyors report. Go to the property yourself with a bag of tools and have a very good look at any structural timbers - joists and lintels - embedded in the stone walls. You are looking for evidence of saturation and rot due to moisture trapped in the masonry by the render. Your fingers (moisture) and nose (fungal mycelium) are your best tools.

Best of luck.

 

[JohnB]

Have a look at the heating bills and think forward for potential rises in carbon fuel prices

Are you really prepared to live at ambient temperature with a bit of a wood fire in one room? These houses were never built to be occupied at 20 deg C!

Be warned! Ignore your surveyors report. Go to the property yourself with a bag of tools and have a very good look at any structural timbers - joists and lintels - embedded in the stone walls. You are looking for evidence of saturation and rot due to moisture trapped in the masonry by the render. Your fingers (moisture) and nose (fungal mycelium) are your best tools.

Having moved in a week before Christmas, with snow on my first morning, I'm getting very aware of heating bills! The aim is to externally insulate and lime render, but I need to do lots of investigation and costing before deciding. The lodgers are experiencing trying to keep warm indoors. I've got more sense, and am still living in my nice small cosy van .

I ignored the surveyors report, by not having one done! I got a nice man who hangs around on here to look at it instead.