Weatherproofing rosemary tile verge (undercloak?)

paulb33 · Mar 5, 2014

Zebra said:
I see. In which case I probably agree with Feltwell that a fibre undercloak would do. It's thin enough not to raise the line of the tiles, and if you're not too concerned with historical accuracy in this location, then the fact that it's a single strip rather than individual tiles will probably offer more support to the verge, structurally.

Would the fibre undercloak be visible? How far does it extend to the tile edge?

Zebra · Mar 5, 2014

My neighbour has such a thing on her pitched roof, and you can see a strip around 40mm wide. On my slate cloak you can see (goes outside to look) about 50-60mm. In both cases it extends all the way to be flush with the outer edge of the tile, and you can see the thing from the ground, but our houses are small. The apex of my gable end is probably around (goes outside to look again) 5 metres from the ground. Your situation may be a little different and you may see less of it. You seem to have quite a small overhang over the bargeboard, and then, did I read correctly, you are going to install fascia over the bargeboard too?

paulb33 · Mar 5, 2014

Zebra said:
My neighbour has such a thing on her pitched roof, and you can see a strip around 40mm wide. On my slate cloak you can see (goes outside to look) about 50-60mm. In both cases it extends all the way to be flush with the outer edge of the tile, and you can see the thing from the ground, but our houses are small. The apex of my gable end is probably around (goes outside to look again) 5 metres from the ground. Your situation may be a little different and you may see less of it. You seem to have quite a small overhang over the bargeboard, and then, did I read correctly, you are going to install fascia over the bargeboard too?

Thanks for your help! Particularly going out in the cold. Its way high up. And, yes, a fascia board will be fixed on the barge board. This butts up to the verge tile. There's probably 1-2cm of overhang beyond the fascia board.
I'm reluctant to add anything visible on the verge edge. Its otherwise a very simple, almost crude, tiled roof.

I'm wondering if we don't just put felt under the tiles and wrapped over the bargeboard. A well painted, pressure treated fascia board would then affix on this. This protects the roof and bargeboard. Yes, water will track behind the fascia board. But, to an extent, it preferentially sacrifices the (somewhat cosmetic) fascia board over time.

plasticpigeon · Mar 5, 2014

Sounds like a nice simple solution. I just have one question. If you take the tiles up at the verge, and they are nailed to the barge board. How are you going to nail them back down again after?

paulb33 · Mar 5, 2014

plasticpigeon said:
Sounds like a nice simple solution. I just have one question. If you take the tiles up at the verge, and they are nailed to the barge board. How are you going to nail them back down again after?

Don't we just take off the tiles, fit the felt/undercloak on (and over) the newly repaired bargeboard, lay a fresh mortar bed on the felt/undercloak and nail down at intervals through the wet mortar/felt and into the bargeboard? I'm a total noobie at this....
Paul

88v8 · Mar 6, 2014

When removing the verge tiles, there is a high risk of breaking the tile & halfs, especially if they are bedded/pointed in cement.
As I found recently, obtaining reclaims is all but impossible.
A Plan B might be prudent.

Ivor

Penners · Mar 6, 2014

paulb33 said:
The fascia board will be fixed on this bargeboard (butting up to the tiles and hiding a multitude of sins...)

That sounds like the way to go - providing support to the tile verge and protecting the barge boards from the weather. If it were me, I would (rightly or wrongly):-

1. Try to get as much as possible of the bitumen gloop off the wood (non-destructively) before covering it up,

2. Slosh plenty of wood preservative on to the rotted areas of wood before covering them up (and of course use pressure treated timber for the new fascia),

3. Insert a bed of mortar between the top edge of the fascia and the soffit of the tiles,

4. Insert spacers between the new fascia and the barge board, so that the former stands away from the latter slightly. This will allow air circulation to help dry out the rotted areas of timber, and to continue ventilating those timbers.

I hasten to add that these thoughts have been formulated on the basis of seeing a few photographs. You're the person on site who is best placed to make sensible decisions.

plasticpigeon · Mar 6, 2014

There is a lot of overlap in the tiles, I can't remember the technical terms, but there are always 2 tiles overlapping and for a short length for each tile there are 3 tiles overlapping. I think gauge is the length of tile showing, and lap is the overlap of 3 tiles. It is impossible to take of just the verge tiles I believe, the tiles will have to come off in a triangle shape, one tile at the eaves up to as many tiles across as there are rows of tiles on your roof. I'm not a roofer, but I believe there are other ways such as fashioning strips of lead to hook over a tile lath and hook over the bottom of the tile, but I don't think that is a good solution here, it is for replacing the odd broken tile when the rest of the roof is sound.

Penners · Mar 6, 2014

plasticpigeon said:
It is impossible to take of just the verge tiles I believe, the tiles will have to come off in a triangle shape.

I'm not sure whether that's a response to my post above, but I certainly wasn't advocating any tile removal - simply that you lay a fillet of mortar along the top of the top of the fascia board before you press it up underneath the tiles, in order to discourage any rain penetration between the top of the fascia and the soffit of the tiles.

I hope that explanation makes sense.

plasticpigeon · Mar 6, 2014

Hi Penners, it was more in response to Paul's earlier post really.

paulb33 said:
Don't we just take off the tiles, fit the felt/undercloak on (and over) the newly repaired bargeboard, lay a fresh mortar bed on the felt/undercloak and nail down at intervals through the wet mortar/felt and into the bargeboard? I'm a total noobie at this....
Paul

paulb33 · Mar 6, 2014

Penners said:
plasticpigeon said:

I hope that explanation makes sense.

Click to expand...

Perfect sense.

We agreed a plan today. We'll not be removing any tiles. We'll cut out a 6m length of the rotten barge-board, taking it to the upper purlin (and giving it two securing points). The new barge-board will be pushed up on to the tiles, with a bed of fresh mortar. We'll then slosh on some linseed oil paint. Finally fixing the fascia board on (and crossing my fingers for the rest of my time in this house...).

Penners · Mar 6, 2014

Oh, OK. Just wanted to clarify my thoughts.

paulb33 · Mar 7, 2014

Maybe I shouldn't be reinstating the fascia boards?

The joiners think these superficial thin planks have been added at some point. Presumably, to hide rot on the bargeboard top edge. Clearly, where water had been penetrating the verge.

It was only when the superficial fascia board was removed that the extent of underlying bargeboard replacement became apparent. Now we're renewing long sections of the bargeboard. That being the case, I'm wondering about the merits of the fascia timber fixed to the bargeboard. If its not original, am I merely encouraging future rot in the important structural timber (i.e. the bargeboard) by fixing this second timber?

Or, perhaps the fascia board will help support the verge edge? The tile verge does look rather vulnerable to wind on this exposed verge edge. Of course, the bargeboard will give better support without the rot on the top edge...

Thoughts and input would be very much appreciated.

Best

Paul

Penners · Mar 7, 2014

As I said above, my own solution (FWIW) would definitely be to reinstate the fascia boards - but make sure that they not planted directly on to the barge boards - introduce some spacers to hold then at least a couple of cms or so away from the barge boards. That, together with the suggested mortar bed, will keep the rain off the barge boards while allowing them to breathe and dry out.

paulb33 · Mar 7, 2014

Penners said:
As I said above, my own solution (FWIW) would definitely be to reinstate the fascia boards - but make sure that they not planted directly on to the barge boards - introduce some spacers to hold then at least a couple of cms or so away from the barge boards. That, together with the suggested mortar bed, will keep the rain off the barge boards while allowing them to breathe and dry out.

Excellent advice, Penners. Thank you. Our joiner thinks we'll struggle to prep the bargeboard that remains at the apex. They've been coated with a tar/bitumen at some point. So, a fascia board is probably inevitable. Assuming the gap will accommodate the spacer and fascia thickness, it seems like a sensible way to go. Just a small fillet of timber, I'm thinking?

Thanks again: much appreciated.

Paul

Penners · Mar 7, 2014

Paul - when I said "spacers" I wasn't thinking of a continuous fillet of timber - just a series of intermittent spacers. This would allow more air circulation.

If it were me, I think I would place a drilled block of timber - maybe an inch thick and a couple of inches square - between the fascia and the bargeboard wherever a screw goes through from the one into the other.

paulb33 · Mar 7, 2014

Penners said:
Paul - when I said "spacers" I wasn't thinking of a continuous fillet of timber - just a series of intermittent spacers. This would allow more air circulation.

If it were me, I think I would place a drilled block of timber - maybe an inch thick and a couple of inches square - between the fascia and the bargeboard wherever a screw goes through from the one into the other.

Ah, yes. That makes sense. Somewhere for the ladybirds to over-winter too.

Feltwell · Mar 7, 2014

Possibly a little late, but as promised here are some pictures of a verge with plain tiles with a fibreboard undercloak from various points around Feltwell Towers:-

88v8 · Mar 7, 2014

Penners said:
Paul - when I said "spacers" I wasn't thinking of a continuous fillet of timber - just a series of intermittent spacers. This would allow more air circulation.

If it were me, I think I would place a drilled block of timber - maybe an inch thick and a couple of inches square - between the fascia and the bargeboard wherever a screw goes through from the one into the other.

Yes. Perhaps even a double barge board, the outer one being more sacrificial.

Ivor

paulb33 · Mar 8, 2014

Feltwell said:
Possibly a little late, but as promised here are some pictures of a verge with plain tiles with a fibreboard undercloak from various points around Feltwell Towers:-

Wow. Feltwell, your work looks amazing. I love the arched window. Can you post a full house shot?

Weatherproofing rosemary tile verge (undercloak?)

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