Uncovered RSJ

[Cubist]

[QUOTE="Cubist, post: 249272, member: 7307" Without such it was a pointless exercise at best and a money spinner for some unscrupulous cowboy at worst.

Surely the cowboys just *say* they put in a big steel beam on a day when the owner isn’t around to check, then swiftly put up the false ceiling, invoice for a beam and saunter away whistling?
[/QUOTE]

Sorry Lady A but you surprise me with such innocence. Surely you know that the 'smart' cowboy is the one that will supply a vastly over-priced steel and then employ two or three mates to help him to laboriously and at great personal risk install it in full view of the payee before ambling off into the Sunset Inn?

Or are you gulling me with a coquettish pose I wonder.

 

[Coles]

The structural surveyor looked at it today and concluded it was put in place to stop the ceiling bowing. They could used other methods, but anywhere it's needed, so staying.

I now need to learn to love it. I think we will keep it as a piece of metal and paint it black so it matches the range.

 

[Cubist]

For a moment there you had me scratching my head thinking - Whhaaaat?

So they put an RSJ in to prevent 'the false ceiling' suspended from all that wooden carcassing from bowing. So the darned thing is neither use nor ornament. Figures, any tradesman worth his salt would have simply located the the undersides of the joists in the room(s) above and set the brackets in those. Your previous owner was definitely ripped off.

 

[Stevers]

I presumed he meant the original ceiling, but how it could do that via the layer of air above the UJ only he knows. Might be time for a second opinion.

 

[Coles]

For a moment there you had me scratching my head thinking - Whhaaaat?

So they put an RSJ in to prevent 'the false ceiling' suspended from all that wooden carcassing from bowing. So the darned thing is neither use nor ornament. Figures, any tradesman worth his salt would have simply located the the undersides of the joists in the room(s) above and set the brackets in those. Your previous owner was definitely ripped off.

Indeed, actually she was the second owner who didn't do anything to change the house back into one. It was actually lucky we removed the ceiling as the spots in the dropped ceiling had left burn marks on the original ceiling. So really not safe at all.

 

[Cubist]

I presumed he meant the original ceiling, but how it could do that via the layer of air above the UJ only he knows. Might be time for a second opinion.

Me too, and hence the head scratching.

 

[malcolm]

Thank you. If it is supposed to be a tie but not done properly then what risks does it pose in it's current state?

I now feel we need to get a structural engineer regardless if it stays or goes.

As I type this I just thought that perhaps the mortar the steel is sitting on/through is actually part of an old chimney. It has been taken out completely from the second floor and the attic, the chimney removed on that side of the house.

If I tap below it and to the right it's hollow, as in an old chimney breast just convered over with plasterboard.

Could it be something to do with that?

View attachment 14287View attachment 14288

From the last photo in this post it looks like the middle two thirds of the RSJ is holding up something. I doubt the existing ceiling bowing would be much concern to the people adding a false ceiling but the floor bowing upstairs might have been. You would need to take up a floorboard upstairs to figure out the floor construction to understand why the RSJ might be there. It's possible the builders always like to add an RSJ when they remove a brick wall, but it's also very likely the original builders used the wall to support some part of the floor upstairs.

 

[Coles]

From the last photo in this post it looks like the middle two thirds of the RSJ is holding up something. I doubt the existing ceiling bowing would be much concern to the people adding a false ceiling but the floor bowing upstairs might have been. You would need to take up a floorboard upstairs to figure out the floor construction to understand why the RSJ might be there. It's possible the builders always like to add an RSJ when they remove a brick wall, but it's also very likely the original builders used the wall to support some part of the floor upstairs.

The SE removed the flooring, well got the builder to. All he said was that the ceiling could bow without it.

He is rather elderly, he has been doing it for donkeys years. Although that doesn't mean he is right but surely it would be insane to put in a steel for no reason.

But saying that the electrician said their wiring was a joke, even for the 1980s. It was a real bodge.

 

[Stevers]

The SE removed the flooring, well got the builder to. All he said was that the ceiling could bow without it.

That would imply to me that the joists run on to the Universal Joist (UJ). If they're continuous across the UJ then it's down to whether the joists were ever deep enough to span without the wall that was taken out. So is there really a gap over that UJ?

 

[Coles]

That would imply to me that the joists run on to the Universal Joist (UJ). If they're continuous across the UJ then it's down to whether the joists were ever deep enough to span without the wall that was taken out. So is there really a gap over that UJ?

There is a gap, the only thing wedged in there is the small piece of wood sticking out on one side, it's in the pic I posted.

So they will need to pack it.
Considering there is a gap couldn't the ceiling have sagged? It managed to stay up for 40 years.

 

[Stevers]

Considering there is a gap couldn't the ceiling have sagged? It managed to stay up for 40 years.

Quite!

There are sets of tables for depth of joists and the spans that they can take - which over long spans is all about keeping deflection (bounce) under control. It could be time to lift those floorboards and to carefully measure the joists, joist spacing and the span. If there was a problem with the floor, for what looks like a reasonable span, you should feel it bounce long before it will collapse.

For your age of house there should also be several intact runs of herringbone bracing between the joists to stiffen such a floor. It could be that one or more of those was omitted because of the supporting wall that was there originally, and that could be the concern of the SE, but if so, why not put a run of noggins in - that would be the modern way.

 

[LadyArowana]

If there was a problem with the floor, for what looks like a reasonable span, you should feel it bounce long before it will collapse.

Is that true for bridges as well? Asking on behalf of the good folks of Dresden, luckily nobody hurt by this incident as it happened when no trams were running and no pedestrians or cyclists either. It gives pause for thought on the opinion of professionals though as it had apparently been recently upgraded and inspected.

 

[Stevers]

This was the unintended consequence of the use of pre-stressed (and likely post-tensioned) concrete in a determinate way - single point of failure when something goes ping. Road salt appears to have attacked the steel in the bridge due to not quite enough maintenance - though it was on the list for attention. The reason it fell at night is thought to be a significant temperature change applying the last straw.

Bridges deflect with traffic, particularly suspension bridges as I couldn't help noticing as I rode my bike across the old Severn Bridge!

 

[stuart45]

Not quite as bad as the Tacoma bridge on a windy day.

 

[Cubist]

I've been trying to noodle out a reason as to - 'Why would anyone remove half a dozen bricks from a wall to create a housing for an RSJ which, when installed, seemingly only carries the weight directly above at the points where the bricks were removed to create the housing?'

I may be missing something but, surely, that just doesn't make any kind of sense? At present I'm back to/with Occam's Razor - The Builder Was a Bandit.