Two listed building questions

[malcolm]

Normally 3 years to start for both planning and building regs these days (as far as I know). I wondered whether my limit was to do with insulation upgrades as the regs increase requirements every few years and it might seem unreasonable to dig out foundations 20 years ago when the requirements were non existant and then finish in another 10 years time when the regs will likely require no heating at all.

I suspect in my case it might be to do with rules of the independent building regs guy who wants to see some end to it before he starts thinking about retirement.

Walls will spall if they are wet or if there is a surface for water to collect. Spalling is caused by water freezing over the winter. Modern builders will use cement. Easy to use and should be good for more than 10 years which is all they are bothered about. I've been repairing a cement afflicted chimney today. Cement applied maybe 30 years ago has caused a lot of damage and is really difficult to remove without damaging the bricks. The first 300 years had been much easier for my chimney. I hate cement with some passion.

 

[MatthewC]

Steve

I want to support what Malcolm says about cement.

Walls will spall if they are wet or if there is a surface for water to collect. Spalling is caused by water freezing over the winter. Modern builders will use cement. Easy to use and should be good for more than 10 years which is all they are bothered about. I've been repairing a cement afflicted chimney today. Cement applied maybe 30 years ago has caused a lot of damage and is really difficult to remove without damaging the bricks. The first 300 years had been much easier for my chimney. I hate cement with some passion.

The point is that cement is effectively impervious and rigid, whereas a stone wall is porous and expands/contracts according to the temperature. A wall with lime mortar will allow any water in the wall to evaporate via the pointing (which should be more porous than the brick or stone), but cement will prevent this and so retain the water in the wall. This water has to go somewhere so it goes through the brick or stone; when it freezes this breaks off the surface of the stone or brick, hence the face of the wall recedes over time.
If, for instance, you apply a thin coat of cement to lime pointing on a stone wall, it looks good for a while but it is stopping the lime mortar working as it should; eventually the cement will crack and come away from the wall in places. Thus any water that runs down the wall will find these cracks and go into the wall; hence the thin coat of cement pointing is actually damaging the wall by increasing the water in the wall as preventing evaporation. A "professional" job that a lot of people pay for is literally worse than doing nothing!

Matthew

 

[Fowler]

Hi Guys,
I will do a little more digging with regards to the building regs.
Regarding the cement pointing, there are areas of spalling on the house itself and is consistent with shallow pointing, if I am honest, from what I have pulled off I cannot for the life of me understand why they bothered as the lime pointing dose not seem to have receded more than 2-5mm, I can only think it was done following poor advise on preventing the wet walls inside!
I take your advise regarding not using cement but I would like to get a better understanding of the implications. If spalling is caused by water trying to exit the wall, is it safe to say that this would not occur if the wall was dry on the inside?
Kind Regards
Steve

 

[malcolm]

It is very common to see a very thin layer of cement mortar with no raking out of the lime underneath. I've been picking stuff out with my finger nail leaving lime mortar that I wouldn't have bothered re-pointing in the first place.

If the wall is old and made of lime it will probably have some seasonal movement. Cement won't take any movement and will crack. Water gets sucked in through the cracks and can't get out. Drying the wall from the inside will give you a water gradient from the wet on the outside to dry inside, but it will still be a wet wall outside. It should help though - at least some of the water will have somewhere to go.

The damage won't happen overnight so it's not necessarily an immediate panic, but something to plan to fix at some stage. Also a reason to be careful about internal finishes that might prevent what drying you might have. Cement on both sides results in a completely sodden wet wall like this one:

 

[skier-hughes]

Spalling happens because the water gets trapped in the brick, it needs free movement both in and out of the house. The pointing should be softer than the brick and is sacrificial if needed.

 

[steveb]

that pic reminds me of the structural timber in our place - it had the texture of the stuff that you put plants in (that I don't know the name of) so I could pull it off in handfulls and crush it into powder.

The structural timber stopped about 2 feet short of the floor, so what we actually had was a layer of structural cement render - discovered at the point that we started removing it...

 

[Penners]

the texture of the stuff that you put plants in (that I don't know the name of)

I think you mean Oasis. I've used that metaphor for old, rotten oak myself!

 

[malcolm]

This one is like the stuff you put plants in too - soil.

 

[Keithj]

Most of our sole plates were like that. Clever builder had covered all the slightly damaged areas with concrete and painted it black. In some places, the oak was just hoovered up before the repairs started.

 

[Fowler]

Hi All,
Just got back from several projects in south africa and a new baby hence my impression of lord Lucan!
Ok, Back on with options for the house/pub. We have almost lost all patients with the council/CO and are now looking for expert advice regarding the boundary wall and what we can and cant do between that and the main house. any advice or suggestions?
Kind regards
Steve

 

[88v8]

We have almost lost all patience with the council/CO and are now looking for expert advice regarding the boundary wall and what we can and can't do between that and the main house. any advice or suggestions?

Ultimately, the CO should be your defence against insulation fanatics in BC. So you really need the CO on board.

Some pics might better help us understand the issues, and the situation with the wall.

Ivor

 

[Penners]

We have almost lost all patients

Lucky you're not a doctor!

I agree with Ivor that some pictures and/or a bit more detail about your own ideas might help us to understand your problem.

 

[Fowler]

Hi Guys,
I will have to sort some pictures out again.
When we discussed the boundary with the council on the previous application, they suggested we use dog legged posts installed vertically inside the wall that then go horizontally above the wall and vertical again flush with the front of the wall with a cladding on the outside. When we suggested this option this time it was turned down as an option! they had suggested it previously which is where my frustrations come from. In addition to that we even looked at buying a 200mm wide strip rite around the property to put up a fence outside of the wall, we were even encouraged to pursue this option, either way we would have ended up with a fence!!
The problem we have is that the kids use the grounds as a play area and they steal our rubbish and burn it in the local ball park (adjacent to the boundary wall). We would like to use the grounds about one acre) to grow veg and keep chickens but this would be impossible at the moment. All of the trouble we have seems to be opportunist as the current wall is easily stepped over in some places. As well as the arson issues, we regularly have stones thrown onto the roof and through the windows, all this done from within the grounds.
If we cannot resolve the security issue then we will just open it back up as a pub and move on elsewhere.
The CO and local planning officer have suggested building up the wall but to me that goes directly against conservation and the cost would be crippling.
I am looking for advice to find out where I stand legally, not bothered if I have to pay for it. The wall and building are separate listings and it is not a curtilage so am I able to put up a fence within the grounds without planning permission? To secure all building materials and tools I plan on putting shipping containers here, I assume this is allowed? The property is currently commercial so am I better off getting the security aspect sorted before applying for change of use?
Any help/advise would be much appreciated.
Regards
Steve n Sarah

 

[88v8]

If I lived in an area where children are allowed to run riot as you describe, I would move. Or perhaps this is because you have been away and the property has stood empty? Thinking back to my yoof, I could understand the temptation.

Imv, you would be 'conserving' the wall if you save as much as possible and build sympathetically on top. Yes, a long boundary wall of decent height is going to be a lot of money or a lot of work, but without it, can you have a viable house? Could you defend the wall with a temporary barbed wire fence, even if it's not on your land, while you rebuild and raise it?

It is also worth considering the issues you will encounter in a change of use. Malcolm has extensively documented the problems he has experienced turning a pub into a house, the interference from Building Control, the insulation obsessives. Is this what you really want.
As has been commented elsewhere there is a reason that commercial buildings are often cheap to buy. There is also a reason why attractive pubs end up being demolished - it simply is not economically viable for 'developers' to turn them into a dwelling, in view of the extensive alterations that can be required to comply with current regs.
Don't wish to be negative, but unless you have a big pot of money and are prepared to pour it out, and do battle with BC to preserve the Period patina that presumably attracted you in the first place, you might do better to move on.

Ivor

 

[Fowler]

Hi Ivor,
The property has never been empty, my partner stayed here while I was away, everyone in the area knows we live here, even though the downstairs windows have protective mesh on them.
Im fast thinking of planting firs all around the inside and then letting a prickly climbing plant use it as a means to climb, it would take a while but we could push the firs on using a hydroponic growing system and then just acclimatise them before planting, However, if I dont need planning permission to put a fence up between the wall and house then thats the way I plan on going, the property is not curtilage listing so I need to find out what I can actually do in the grounds.
We dont really want the hassle but here we are completely dept free so its something we are prepared to suffer to a certain extent, the CO has already suggested that she would not support the idea of internal insulation so that a positive. I assume the external patina is protected from BC by the listing so our only worry is the internal insulation.
Regards
Steve n Sarah

 

[Penners]

a prickly climbing plant

Some suggestions:-

'Rambling Rector' rose. Fast growing, rampant and very thorny. Will need support
Eleagnus augustifolia. Fast growing, very thorny, sweet smelling shrub.
Berberis x stenophylla. Forms a thick tangle of very spiny stems. Pretty well impossible to get through it.

 

[Fowler]

Is supporting them allowed? I thought not but will they climb a fir tree?

 

[paulc]

One of my favourites for hedging is Poncirus Trifoliata - Unfortunately, not particularly fast growing, but with thorns up to two inches in length, it makes a good substitute for barbed wire. Pyracantha, Hawthorn, and Holly are other candidates for defensive hedges.

 

[88v8]

Is supporting them allowed? I thought not but will they climb a fir tree?

Noooo. Conifers are efficient feeders and will leave little nourishment or moisture in the soil for a climber. And climbers won't grow into shade, so they won't actually attach themselves to a conifer.
If you can put up a wire fence then that can be used as a support.

Also depends on the soil and climate. What have you? And where are you? Alter your Profile to show your location.....

Presumably you are hoping that if there is a screen, in time the yoof/yobs will forget you are there and stop bothering you. Even the fastest growing conifer in good soil and a happy climate, will not make more than a foot a year, so that will take quite a while. And they won't stop growing at a convenient height.
Another plant option would be cob nuts/hazel. Not prickly, but they will grow to 20/25ft (depending where you are) and then stop. If you plant them 6ft apart they will make a pretty solid screen. Also, you won't have to prune them.

And then there's wild blackberry, which you can train on a wire fence. They can be layered along, and will grow 4ft in a season.

Ivor

 

[Penners]

I agree with Ivor - don't try to grow climbers up conifers.

If I were you, I'd plant a hedge of the Eleagnus or Berberis in the varieties that I suggested above (be sure to choose those specific varieties - not just any old Eleagnus or Berberis). Then there's no support necessary. And there can be no listing ramifications, because listing doesn't apply to growing plants.