Two listed building questions

[Fowler]

Hi All,
Have not posted on here for a while but im back with more questions.
We own a property that is grade 2* listed and has a boundary wall that is separately listed. My questions are:-

1) Has anyone had any experience with the de-listing of a structure (listed garden wall)? I have had a quote of 56K to repair half of it but would prefer to spend this on the house and take the wall away.

2) With regards to building regs, could they insist on insulating the interior walls to obtain a specific u value or would the CO prevent this?

Kind Regards
Steve

 

[livias]

I'm not an expert but my guess at answers is

1. Not a chance. You have to keep it
2. They cannot insist. It is not a new build so the limit is that you must not make it worse than it is now

 

[malcolm]

This is a change of use you mentioned Penllwyn Manor pub to house? I'm going through a change of use at the moment. It will drive you mad. Nobody mentions that a change of use is treated as a new build and the house must be updated to new build standards. My special advice is don't get rid of the urinals - you'll need as many of them on individual flush as possible to get past the water efficiency requirements (Part G).

Part L1b is the biggie (energy efficiency) and do download and read it. Page 10 exempts listed buildings only where work would unacceptably affect the character of the property. The conservation officer does have the upper hand over building regs, but she is unlikely to mind if you have 300mm of insulation in the loft and secondary glazing. Removing original materials to insulate internal walls will probably be out which will save a lot of money.

The stone wall looks thick. Was it once part of another building? Most unlikely you'll get permission to demolish it. Will it stand by itself for a bit longer?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

If it's the house that's been named in the post above, then the answer to question 1 is no chance.
The only grounds for delisting something would be in effect the reverse of the reasons for listing it- i.e. that it's not of special architectural or historic interest.
There's no way it would be delisted just because repairing it has thrown up an expensive quote. The only route to go down would be to apply for LBC to demolish it but I wouldn't rate the chances of success very highly with that approach either.

 

[Fowler]

hi guys,
Thanks for the reply's, there is a bigger picture regarding this property in that it is situated on a housing estate that is a little unsavoury shall we say. We are having problems with vandalism and kids climbing and pulling sections for the wall down. Since I posted the questions I have contacted the property department of the council in the hope that I can buy a 300mm strip around the perimeter of the wall so that i can erect a fence outside the wall to protect it. lets see what comes of that. We need to prevent the kids from entering the grounds and a fence may be the only way to do this. If I am successful with purchasing the 300mm perimeter, what sort of fencing can i expect to be requested to erect?
With regard to the insulation, the external walls of the property have been cement pointed, I dont intend to remove all of this and revert back to lime pointing as the cost would be enormous and would need re-doing every 30 years or so. This in mind, our plan is to remove all of the internal cement render and repoint and white lime, the goal is to be able to draw the moisture out of the wall from the inside. If we are forced to insulate the inside then this idea is blown out of the water.
Any thoughts?
Kind Regards
Steve

 

[Penners]

Fowler, in case you don't know, Gareth's advice is solid gold. He's an expert in such matters.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

you might be more likely to get away with an external render with some insulative properties (depends how much the interior has been wrecked), given that it used to be whitewashed on the outside. Sadly the recent upgrade to this forum hasn't included the ability to post extra pictures...
But you will find the photo on the Coflein website

 

[malcolm]

That sounds difficult. The worry with internal insulation (as you probably already know) is warm air holds more water than cold air, and where you have a permeable wall with a temperature gradient the water condenses into the wall as the air cools. The ideal would be to have a wall fairly impermeable on the inside and breathable to the outside so it lets out whatever water that gets in. The other way around sounds like a way to trap water in the wall.

PS I think lime pointing should be good for well over 100 years - most of the older houses near to me have never been repointed. It's cement that lasts only 30 years as it falls out where it has damaged the wall.

I have similar trouble with a timber framed wall where someone has painted the lime roughcast with waterproof paint. I don't want my dew point inside the timber frame. I'm planning to build a stud wall on the inside with insulation attached and vent the cavity between the stud wall and timber frame right through to the roof space. That way I shouldn't be sending much water into the frame from inside. The downside is the wall will end up about 0.5m thick.

 

[Fowler]

I don’t believe any of this wall is original, the portion we want to keep was built with black mortar so no doubt it has been rebuilt at least once in its life. I don’t believe that the section we want to remove has any originality to it. I have now applied to buy a 300mm wide strip around the outside if the boundary in the hope that we can erect a fence to give us some security. Could the CO prevent us repairing the wall with cement?
Malcolm, water efficiency requirements? I plan on secondary double glazing in oak frames but have to figure out how to make it invisible from the outside. The wall will probably be fine for sometime yet provided the kids leave it alone but they have pulled part of it down, this has been repaired with cement.
Gareth, I don’t believe the portion of the wall I want to demolish has any historical or architectural significance. At some point the council has even demolished part of it and put a building there (modern materials but now biggest part demolished.
I have a copy of the picture you describe, I was thinking of being bold but that would be a big step! Outer insulation is a definite no as the outer appearance seems to be the CO’s greatest concern. Along with Malcolms comments I think we need to revisit our ideas and look at the external pointing. Would a mixture of cement and lime mortar pointing be middle ground? Just a long shot idea.
This advise is priceless, thank you all. The situation with the planning application may push us to re-open as a pub, not what we want but we have to be practical.
Regards
Steve

 

[malcolm]

Is the wall damp at the moment and is the damp definitely caused by the cement and nothing cheaper to fix? If not I would be inclined to leave the cement pointing in place for now. It's a good £50/m2 to repoint properly and there is no point doing it badly. If replacing then use lime and no cement. Mixes of lime and cement behave as cement (apart from being a bit more flexible) so don't really offer much advantage. I don't believe retrofitting wall insulation (unless other works make it easy) is environmentally friendly as the payback period is longer than the lifetime of the material. It's a waste of resources.

For water efficiency you either need to change every toilet and tap in the house or keep multiple urinals and just change all the taps. Once you apply you work to the current regs but they give you a 3 year time limit to complete. For planning the project allow time for a period of depression after applying for the change of use. They come round and tell you what they want. For me they wanted all roofs to be insulated to latest regs, all downstairs walls, secondary glazing to all windows, fire doors to make safe the exit from the 2nd floor attic, some new windows for fire egress. An independent building regs person is probably better than a council one. If you get a jobsworth there is more you could be asked to do.

The knock ons are worse - for me I had some damp to fix which has involved a new roof, paint stripping water proof paint from the exterior, ground levels outside, gutters etc. The other half wants a new kitchen when we rip the old one out to insulate the walls. Electrics and plumbing will need work to suit the insulation. For me the grand design I first had has turned into a building regs change of use project that will have eaten slightly more than my entire budget. Once finished I plan to do nothing more on the house, just sit in an upstairs window shouting at passers by.

When we first moved in we were paying 10% of the normal council tax on the commercial part, and this turned out to be less than residential council tax. I don't know how long they would have offered the discount for, or whether it would be allowable just to run as a pub one evening a week.

 

[Fowler]

Hi Malcolm
Thank you for your reply, more questions below, I hope you dont mind.

Is the wall damp at the moment and is the damp definitely caused by the cement and nothing cheaper to fix? If not I would be inclined to leave the cement pointing in place for now. It's a good £50/m2 to repoint properly and there is no point doing it badly. If replacing then use lime and no cement. Mixes of lime and cement behave as cement (apart from being a bit more flexible) so don't really offer much advantage. I don't believe retrofitting wall insulation (unless other works make it easy) is environmentally friendly as the payback period is longer than the lifetime of the material. It's a waste of resources.

Most of the walls are damp but one is exceptionally bad, from what I can see, there are two causes, one is the poor areas of pointing which allows the water in and the other are the two leaking attic windows, I have repaired what I think is the main cause but am now waiting for heavy rain so I can see if there are any more areas that need attention. Re repairs I have done so far are with cement as I guessed it would be better than an amateur attempt with lime mortar! I dont want to fit wall insulation as we are literally on a shoe-string budget and dont want to borrow money for the work. Hacking off the internal cement and re-pointing with lime mortar and a topping of white wash would seem to be the cheapest and most sympathetic options. To offset the low U value that this will inevitably throw up we were thinking of planting the bottom end of the grounds with Willow which will give us a sustainable heating source. The down side of this would probably be that we will lose the use of this ground for anything else. Does this sound like a sensible option?

For water efficiency you either need to change every toilet and tap in the house or keep multiple urinals and just change all the taps. Once you apply you work to the current regs but they give you a 3 year time limit to complete. For planning the project allow time for a period of depression after applying for the change of use. They come round and tell you what they want. For me they wanted all roofs to be insulated to latest regs, all downstairs walls, secondary glazing to all windows, fire doors to make safe the exit from the 2nd floor attic, some new windows for fire egress. An independent building regs person is probably better than a council one. If you get a jobsworth there is more you could be asked to do.

I didnt know about the three year limit!! that could sink us. This may force a different approach. Hack off and repoint everything first and carry out all repairs with the current regs in mind (repairs are allowed??) then re-apply when we have the money to do the rest of the work. Would rainwater harvesting help with the water efficiency? The secondary glazing was always on the cards but we were going to make the oak frames ourselves and just fit in the ready made double glazing, I am going to assume that this will not be allowed? We have had one side of the attic insulated already ( the side we are living in ) as we are not putting any rooms in the attic this should be ok I am guessing? I will not put the money for the building regs in the councils pocket!!!!

The knock ons are worse - for me I had some damp to fix which has involved a new roof, paint stripping water proof paint from the exterior, ground levels outside, gutters etc. The other half wants a new kitchen when we rip the old one out to insulate the walls. Electrics and plumbing will need work to suit the insulation. For me the grand design I first had has turned into a building regs change of use project that will have eaten slightly more than my entire budget. Once finished I plan to do nothing more on the house, just sit in an upstairs window shouting at passers by.

I have a path outside that is higher than the inside floor in one room so I will be dropping the level of that accordingly. As I have said before, If we dont end up with something resembling what we want the we will be reopening it as a pub, not what we want to do but we have to protect our investment.

When we first moved in we were paying 10% of the normal council tax on the commercial part, and this turned out to be less than residential council tax. I don't know how long they would have offered the discount for, or whether it would be allowable just to run as a pub one evening a week.

We are paying council tax on the flat and were told that the rest of the building is vacant possession, vacant possession on a listed building draws no council tax I believe??

U ever get the feeling you have made a big mistake??!! lol.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Fowler
Can I please check that you are doing what you are doing (hacking off and repointing in cement!!! to the extent you are talking about is unlikely to count as repair) in full, open and honest consultation both with the local planning department (who aren't the same thing as building regulations) and, since the house is Grade II*, with CADW?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Fowler
I've found your applications online and I have to say that in my professional view, as an architect and former conservation officer, you are not being served well by your agent. Has he had any experience of dealing with historic buildings before?
The information provided is completely inadequate, and there are aspects of the proposed new works, such as the lean-to garage roofs, which it appears are incapable of being built as drawn.
In addition, your posts here have described various works to the historic building which are not mentioned in the application.

 

[Fowler]

Hi Gareth,
The hacking off will be the internal walls only, we will remove all of the cement render and pointing and replace it with lime mortar pointing and whitewash, this has already been agreed with the CO, we plan on leaving the walls uncovered for a period to allow the wall to dry. We have removed one section of the render, at first, the stone and mortar were soaking but it has dried surprisingly well. My only concern with opening up large areas of the walls is that the drying may have an adverse effect but I think this is unfounded any way.
As well as removing the cement render, we also plan to carry out work on the wooden beams in the ceiling. Two of these are extremely old and we wish they could talk! The plan for these is to remove them, cast new ends and replace them, 4 will have to be replaced with new oak beams as the existing ones are a modern fix and not really serviceable. The new ones will have a groove on the top out of site, this will carry a tie bar should the wall require it.
With regard to the planning application, I am not totally confident with the guy I am using, however, he does have a good relationship with the local planning department which I want to use at the moment. I agree that the plans are a little vague at the moment but I want to get agreement in principal with the proposals before adding the full details. The lean to on the back of the building is a wood shed, very large I know but that will be our main source of heat for the property if all goes to plan.
Kind Regards
Steve

 

[malcolm]

That's not a bad place to be with the council tax. I would keep that going as long as you can. It is reasonable for a pub to be shut while renovations are ongoing, and nobody complains if you happen to be storing furniture down there to keep it away from mess elsewhere. If you need to think ahead on possible building regs change of use stuff it is possible to get some of the independent building regs people over for a 1 hour consultation without applying for building regs. They will give you some idea of what you will need to plan for.

One thought on damp. Our place was boarded up for a year and the walls were dripping with water when we moved in. It was mid winter and we turned the heating on full and opened all of the doors and the attic windows for ventilation. Unheated buildings will get damp. Cement both sides of the wall won't help, but if you have a hard stone it won't spall quickly, and a bit of heating and ventilation will keep the insides dry.

Throw away your cement and use lime. It's so much easier to use than cement for a first timer as you can fiddle with it for longer. If you get NHL 3.5 (most builders merchants will have it) and treat it just like you are treating cement then the job will be better. To improve on things make sure the lime mortar is well compacted - go over it again and press it in when it starts becoming firm. Then cover it if exposed to sun or wind, and spray it with water a couple of times a day for a few days to give it a chance to go off before it dries. Cement is horrible in every possible way anywhere between the chimneys and the ground.

 

[Fowler]

Hi Malcolm,
From what I have found on the internet, once the work has started there is no time limit for completion so we will not be rushing to get it done, the work will be done as money allows. Once we have the proposals agreed then we will be checking the building regs requirements as you say.

The section of wall that we removed the cement render from dried of its own accord with no attention given to ventilation or heating, I was really shocked at the way it dried, the plan for the internal walls is to leave them open for a year to dry, once the cement render has been removed. I am not keen on the internal insulation idea so hope that this isnt forced on us.
Another point on the U value, is this calculated on volumes? We are not planning to remove any ceilings or floors as this is a step too far for us, instead we will be putting new ceilings under the existing and floors above, not sure if this is a good idea but in theory it will reduce the volume of space we need to heat.

I am using cement on the boundary wall, I can use it and forget it so to speak, if I were to cover the sections of the boundary wall with wet hessian sacks (I would have to if using lime mortar) the kids would have a field day!!! My justification with the CO is the fact that huge sections of the wall have already been repaired this way, also, I believe that cement has more strength (more difficult to pull stones off of it) than mortar, the fact that the kids have already pulled a section of the wall out I need to prevent them from doing this.
Inside the house will be all lime mortar, from the research I have done, you put it into the joints and the pack it in with a churn brush once it has stiffened. I have had some practice with it in the attic so I should only get better at it.

I am not planning on removing all of the cement pointing around the outside of the building as yet, this would be a mammoth task! and one that has left me pondering the long term fix.

The other consideration is heating the place, I would like to come up with something innovative and new but thats for another time.
Kind Regards
Steve

 

[Roger H]

Steve,

Re the boundary wall, you should think very carefully before using cement. If the wall is stone, (excepting granite), or pre C20th brick, the cement is highly likely to cause spalling of the stone and delamination of the brick. If you use NHL 3.5 and sharp sand, 1:3 ratio, and do your wall when we have a few days of overcast weather, it will go off fine. A bit of a spray to keep it damp and forget the hessian if it is in a vulnerable position. Believe us, cement will likely wreck the masonry.

Best,

Roger

 

[malcolm]

It does seem to say on the internet that there is no time limit for completing building regs. I'll have to look into why I seem to have a limit, though it's not too much bother at my end as I've limited the work to change of use stuff and ought to be finished next summer.

Glad removing the cement render is helping the wall dry out. Cement inside and outside will only trap water in the wall, so it's good it gets a chance to dry out. Take some photos of the damp - the clear need for breathability on the inside that you have found would make a very strong case not to insulate the internal walls as dry lining will only make them wet again. It is possible to insulate but you would have to get clever about it which pushes cost way past any sensible payback period (they can only make you do stuff that has 30 year payback, however I reckon some of mine has around 200 year payback which is environmentally unfriendly as it won't last that long).

I don't know much about the calcs. Building regs told me what they wanted. We negotiated a bit to avoid rotting my timber frames, then I had a SAP calculation done with that information which I didn't look at and passed straight to building regs. It seems that a large floor area compared to wall area helps a lot. A cube shaped building would do well.

I would try a bit of lime on the wall. People trespass, destroy or steal things when the place looks neglected - seems to be human nature. If they see someone is having a go to make things nicer the chances are they will leave it alone.

 

[Fowler]

Hi Malcolm,
Maybe the difference is that once work has started there is no time limit to completion, however, if not completed within 3 years the building regs portion needs to be revisited? That would be a nightmare!
I didnt think about pictures when I took a small section of the render off but will be taking plenty when we get round to real work, using this as a lever against insulation is a good idea, i didnt even think of that.
We will see what building regs come back with when the time comes.
Unfortunately, it seems that us using the building draws more attention than if it were empty, this really isnt a nice area at all!!

Hi Roger,
Is the spalling of the brickwork specific to areas where the pointing is very shallow? I have noticed this on the actual building in places where the pointing is shallow yet there are no signs of spalling on the boundary wall. There are many new stone walls being put up around here, all of which are built using cement. The patches of wall that I have repaired have been with cement but I have ignored the rule of "the depth should be twice the height of the joint" and have gone in as far as possible, 2-3 inches in most places.
If the inside of the wall is dry before it is pointed will it still spall over time?
Kind Regards
Steve

 

[Penners]

It does seem to say on the internet that there is no time limit for completing building regs.

I can only add that, the last time I received LBC and BRC on a listed building, the only time limit applied to the commencement of the work. There was no specified time limit on completion.

However, this was about 9 years ago and applied to a private house, so I don't know whether things have changed. If I remember correctly (which is unlikely, given that at my age I can't remember what I had for breakfast today!) the commencement time limit was one year.