Thoughts, comments appreciated on Vic. House worries

[Kenny]

Glad I've just found this forum as I've been trawling the net for a few pointers.......to no avail.

We have found a Victorian house that we really would like to try and bring back to its former glory.
We are at present in an Edwardian house which we did a similar job on.......14 years on we now want a change.

The house in question is what I'd class as in typical Victorian style...ie 1870,s, all brick rendered with blue engineering brick dpc. It has the double front doors with a bay either side, upstairs windows are flush with arch landing window over front door......upstairs windows have ornate stone mullions and house just looks so much more of a place to live than the new 5 bedroomed 3 en-suite offerings in consevatory land :wink:

Ok, the house needs all the normal refurbing you'd expect so I won't bother detailing that............I would like comments though on 2 points which are keeping us from doing the deal.

1) There are noticable cracks through the render on both front and rear elevations (I gather it was re-rendered some 12 years ago)...this is not a worry in itself but I notice that 3 of the cracks have actually broken the thick concrete/stone window sills( you can see where the fractures have been filled/painted), 2 at the rear and one through the really thick sill on the front bay...........the old addage of "well it's been up for 140years) is ringing in my ears but cracked sills of that size do worry me.

2)Both gable ends are visibally bowed/bellied....I commented on this and the owner assured me it was no problem.
Being polite, I didn't argue the point but asked why it wasn't a problem.
He replied "A lot were built like this"

He went inside (obviously prepared for this snag) and emerged with his survey from 20 odd years back which picked up on the bellying)
He then produced a counter letter from a local architect/building firm which stated a lot of Victorian houses were in fact "Built with a belly" to counter rain fall problems with roofs on gable ends :?

We were flabbergasted...........never heard of that in my life and I don't know this architect from Adam, although I must say the two 1 foot deep chimney breasts on both bellied gables were also bowed "to suit" and showed no signs of trauma.

Has anyone ever heard of this before?
The dilemma we are in is that we both do really want the house but obviously don't want to bite off more than we can chew.
The house is up for top dollar considering the work needed and we could buy similar with very little fettling needed nearby.......admitedly this is in a nice Victorian thoroughfare though.

My heart says everything is as you'd expect from an old house, yet my head says the cracks are nasty and the vendor is not correct with his bellied gable ends letter.

Other than a full and utter structural survey is there any other way I could get more info on these highlighted problems?.

Many thanks for listening to this long winded post.
My next one will be shorter.

Many thanks,

Edited to add......House is in Southport.

Kenny

 

[JMartin]

Hi Kenny,

I know nothing of victorian houses and belled walls however I can tell you about our experiences with a cracked lintel that I'm guessing is about the same size as the one you have.

We have a 100 year old brick built house that originally had two sash windows where there is now 1 upvc monstrosity. The mullion was removed to install the new window and nothing was done to support the wall. Consequently the sandstone lintel cracked all the way through effectively removing support for the upper floor and roof.

We originally thought that the lintel was simply cracked and we would buy another one and replace it. When the builder came round to look at other things he pointed out that the house was actually falling down!!!

It took us a year to fix it but in the end we had helifix bars fitted above the lintel and had the lintel patched to make it look like one piece since it's now not load bearing (this is what historic scotland told us to do).

While the repair weathers it still looks like the lintel is badly cracked and to an outsider it still looks like the house is about to fall down at any minute.

It can be fixed but the reason for it happening is probably something only a structural survey could uncover.

Here are the pictures of ours...

http://manaboutthehouse.wordpress.com/2007/07/11/the-day-they-came/

Ignore the story...I don't know how to just link to the picture.

There are also two lines in the render above where the bars were inserted. Since this will be covered with the new render it's of no consequence although I don't know how this is dealt with in buildings that aren't rendered.

 

[AMc]

My instinct would be to walk away from a house with large cracks on at top wack but we all fall in love don't we?

Did you're vendor's previous survey mention the cracking as well as the 'bellying'?
If they're new (i.e. <20 years) I wouldn't go any further but if they were there when he bought it then you can be a little more confident about the movement being old and stablised.

 

[Kenny]

J.Martin, many thanks for relaying your thoughts and experiences, your pictures are food for thought too.....like your website.

AMc, you are correct about falling for stuff like this............I've done it also with old cars and sometimes the grief just out weighs the benefits.

Your point about the cracks and how old they are is something that I just simply need to know.

Mr. Vendor was keen to show me the report noting the bellying gables and the letter saying it was "normal", but didn't seem to want me to read the document in full.

My mind says that if the building was only rendered 12 years or so ago and these cracks have reopened to 1mm and exactly lining up with the cracked/broken sills then it could indeed still be moving......I assume.

I'd hate to walk...............and keep trying to talk the problems away.
As mentioned the house is in Southport and building contacts have warned me about subsidance in the area being a big problem.

Many thanks for your very helpful replies though.

Regards,

Kenny

 

[AMc]

If his report doesn't show the cracks then he won't let you see it.
If he has nothing to hide then you should be able to get him to agree to letting you have a read at his house or the agents at the least.
If he won't let you read the whole thing then I think you know what to do already. It certainly sounds like there is a serious problem to me.

 

[JMartin]

You would think if he really wanted to sell and had nothing to hide he would have let you read the report. Perhaps the cracks are the tip of a rather large iceberg.

 

[Kenny]

It's looking that way lads at the moment.............Funnily enough, I've actually just called the agents as suggested and voiced our concerns.

I've reiterated our interest in the house but have said that at the price the vendor expects for it I will not be making an offer and wasting monies on a damning structural report.

I have asked to be able to read the full report we glimpsed on Sunday.......If that is not possible then we will be leaving it..........I'll report back on the answer I recieve.

Thanks once more for the sensible comments..........It has woken me up to sort this out.

Cheers,

Kenny

 

[Gervase]

My instincts are that, if the render is only 12 years old and the cracks line up with the cracks in the lintels, then you could be letting yourself in for serious structural work. The fact that the vendor is unwilling to let you see the survey is highly suspicious.
Painful though it may seem, it may be better to walk away now than to fall in love with the place and have it break your heart and the bank.

 

[Kenny]

Gervase......many thanks for that. I totally agree with your comments re. the render.

As I said before I've made the call to see if the vendor will in fact show us the old survey to back up what he's saying, I've recieved no call back so far.

It will be a hard decision to forget this place as it does really feel right to us both when we are inside it, but I know deep down there just may be something very serious wrong with it............all of your comments so far have re-enforced our reality check............we are certainly no mugs but the heart really does put up a huge fight against the brain in cases like this.

Regards,

Kenny

 

[Penners]

Kenny

As you're a newcomer, you might not be aware that Gervase is a professional builder who specialises in period properties. So his views are well worth listening to.

Speaking for myself (a rank amateur) I would have great concerns about cracks such as you've described. Ditto the bellied walls. Unless the building is underpriced sufficient to leave a generous budget for structural work, I'd walk away.

 

[chuckey]

When you say "Southport" is this the Southport near to Birkdale?. This area is all sand. My Sister lives in a Victorian house in Birkdale which is stuffed full of similar houses. The houses around her were built true and remain so, no cracks or under pinning.
I am surprised with the house you are wanting to buy, it looks very iffy to say the least. I can only presume that there has been some change to its circumstances, such as a new underground drain, or an old one that has failed or even the sea is under washing the house some how. I would walk away. There are loads of big victorian houses around there, most of them better then this one.
Frank

 

[Lime]

You have to ask yourself why it was re-rendered.

Perhaps the survey made some note of cracks etc that have now been covered or, worse, began to open up.

What is the soil and subsoil?

If I was very keen on the house I'd ask the neighbours in the street.
Be up front about it.
Ask if they have lived in the area for a long time to start with then ask about when and why the rendering was done.
It is surprising how often neighbours know a great deal about surrounding property.

For instance I know in my street that an underground stream flows across it.
To look at the houses you cannot tell unless you ask around.
On one side of the street where the stream is the entire front of the house was rebuilt 25 years ago.
The property on the otherside has had it's drains completely nenewed 3 times since 1950.
I am fortunate to have found in the local museum an old photograph taken of my house and most of the street before 1914.
It shows a stream flowing under a bridge exactly where the neighbours said it ran.
It is now filled in and the houses mentioned above built over it.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Edited to add......House is in Southport.

Kenny

Aahaah. Childhood trips to Southport were enlivened by spotting the "drunken" houses. As I remember they were mostly early twentieth century and on the eastern edge of town on the road in from Scarisbrick, built on very poor foundations on what had until not long before been sand dunes, and leaning in all directions. Most have since been replaced.

The more solidly built Victorian houses didn't seem to have the same degree of problem, but I would suspect that subsidence is a "feature" of properties in some areas of Southport (much as it is here in Norwich) - of course, it being relatively common doesn't make it relatively unscary.

 

[Nemesis]

Oh, Souhport.

Pleasureland we mourn you.

 

[Kenny]

Thanks once more for all the further comments chaps.

Well as guessed the estate agents have just called back and the vendor does not want the details of the survey disclosing.

The render has been confirmed as only 12 years old so I must accept the fact that the house is indeed still moving.

The house was at the north end of Southport ie opposite side to Birkdale but the more I dig the more I'm finding subsidence is an issue in these parts.

With being a Victorian town there are a glut of nice double fronted period houses and I guess we'll just continue our search to find another in a nice spot..............A lot of them are in narrower roads than this one we fancied and with the amount of cars on the road now parking is an issue.

This one was in a dual carriagway sized road with frontage for six cars ..what a bummer.

Thank you all once more for the advice offered...........it really did play a big part in making us "walk" and although sad feel comfortable with it.

Regards,
Kenny.

PS Concur with the sentiments re. Southport Pleasureland...........it's so sad to drive up the marine drive and not see the old roller coaster on the skyline......bloody vandals :twisted:

 

[Nemesis]

I know. I was heavily involved with attempts to save Cyclone, and the other historic structures on site.

Amanda Thompson sucks.

 

[Flyfisher]

Mr. Vendor was keen to show me the report noting the bellying gables and the letter saying it was "normal", but didn't seem to want me to read the document in full.

Any selective quote is highly dubious if the wider context is not clear. I can just imagine the letter stating "The 'bellying gables' are entirely normal in a property with the serious structural faults currently present" (or similar), whereas "The 'bellying gables' are entirely normal would clearly sound much better to Mr Vendor.

If the property has only just come onto the market then Mr Vendor might be holding out for someone less careful than yourself to come along. Perhaps if it is still unsold this time next year Mr Vendor (and his agent) might be a little more forthcoming.

Alternatively, assume the worst case, knock the required repairs cost off the asking price and make Mr Vendor an offer you would be happy with. He might not be happy and would almost certainly refuse it at present, but in another 6 months he might start to take a more realistic stance.

 

[Kenny]

Flyfisher, succinctly put.

Mrs. is still a bit upset at the deal not going ahead and we were speaking only an hour ago about maybe an offer which would cover us in a worst case scenario as you suggest.

The problem with that is I bet the guy is now smarting about me delving deeper into these flaws and would probably knock back any low offer I made............probably opening the door for the next person to steal a bargain.

To be honest though, I think it will need someone to verify my fears via a costly full structural survey for this chap to accept a penny less.

Thinking again though...........do I really want a place that is obviously in trauma?

Cheers,

Kenny

 

[Flyfisher]

Difficult, I know, when there is an emotional aspect involved (and when isn't there where a potential new home is concerned?), but it sounds like your head is still in charge of the decision-making.

A low offer might well be rejected, but you could let the agent know that it's because it seems very likely there is a structural problem and Mr Vendor is not being forthcoming with the requested information. This might, possibly, persuade Mr Vendor (with some prompting from the agent perhaps) to open up a bit.

Although the agent will clearly want the highest possible price to maximise his commission, he will also be mindful about the chances of a sale at all if the price is too high for the state of the property. Bottom line is that if there's no problem with the property there should be no problem in letting you see the full report. If Mr Vendor is behaving as if he has something to hide then I would assume that he has - and that will inevitably affect the price.

If Mrs Kenny is upset, consider adding the estimated repair costs to the current asking price and then ask yourselves if you would both still be happy doing the deal at that figure. If you can't actually afford that figure then . . . well let's hope the mind prevails over the emotions!

As an aside, an accountant friend of mine works with lots of rich clients, one of whom was looking for a new property and found one for £2.6m. He offered £1.8m, was refused, and walked away. Six months later the vendor came back to him to accept his offer whereupon he subsequently negotiated the price down to £1.5m before closing the deal.

Anyone putting a property on the market will want top price and, initially, is likely to refuse anything below the asking price. The march of time together with a series of lower offers will generally change their outlook.

 

[Flyfisher]

PS: Shouldn't the new HIPs legislation help with this sort of thing? Isn't is now a legal requirement for the vendor to let prospective buyers view the full HIP? Might be worth asking the agent about this.