Thermal comfort in properties constructed pre-1919...

[Mattaoe]

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I am undertaking a research project for my Dissertation, which explores the factors that enable occupants to be thermally comfortable in properties constructed pre-1919 during the UK winter months.

With 20% (5.8million) of the UK homes built pre-1919 it is important to understand how people living in these homes maintain thermal comfort, as these dwellings cannot simply be replaced with modern housing. There are potential health impacts of long-term exposure to the cold, and having experienced some myself living in an old property, I think it is important to understand how thermal comfort can be achieved.

Please only complete this questionnaire if your home was built pre-1919 (before widespread adoption of cavity walls).

Submissions will be closed in the evening of Sunday 30th March.

It consists of 45 questions and should take circa 15 minutes to complete.

All data will be stored anonymously.


If you have any questions or additional information for me, please feel free to reach out.

I appreciate you taking the time to fill out the form.
Matt

 

[mardinor]

Older houses are no colder than modern ones. They may well be less thermally efficient and cost more to heat, but that is a separate matter. |
Thermal comfort is subjective. I find a modern air-tight house at 21C extremely uncomfortable. In hotels I always have to remove the duvet and sleep with the window ajar.

Instead of destroying our built heritage how about encouraging people to wear jumpers indoors in winter and get used to 18C?

PS Good luck with the dissertation. I have completed your survey. Just be aware of your biases and those of your faculty.

 

[Mattaoe]

Older houses are no colder than modern ones. They may well be less thermally efficient and cost more to heat, but that is a separate matter. |
Thermal comfort is subjective. I find a modern air-tight house at 21C extremely uncomfortable. In hotels I always have to remove the duvet and sleep with the window ajar.

Instead of destroying our built heritage how about encouraging people to wear jumpers indoors in winter and get used to 18C?

PS Good luck with the dissertation. I have completed your survey. Just be aware of your biases and those of your faculty.

Thanks for completing the survey and your comment - really appreciate it! If you know of anyone else that might be able to fill it in, please feel free to pass it along

It has taken me ages to try and come up with a questionnaire - if you thought this one was biased, you should have seen the others. I will acknowledge my bias though . My faculty shouldn’t be too much of an issue… I am studying to be a QS, so my course has nothing much to do with this, it is just a personal interest of mine.


I think you make a good point with modern houses; perhaps they have just enough air change over to satisfy requirements, but I find them stuffy and uncomfortable too, especially at 21'!


I have lived in a 1905 terrace with modern double glazing and an 1850’s apartment with old 'leaky' single glazed sash windows, with the latter being far more comfortable, and somewhere I think I could live long term. There are other factors that will impact my thermal comfort not touched on by the survey; it is a mid-floor apartment, walls are 4 bricks thick etc, but I also still wear a jumper and often slippers. However, in the terrace house I would wear a pullover and thick socks too, which just felt excessive and uncomfortable for me. The terrace found it difficult to reach 18' downstairs during the winter without the wood stove roaring - which to me seemed that there was inadequate heat output from the primary heating system (3 year old gas combi, retro fitted of course), plus other issue’s with that specific house.


I just want to see whether people are generally thermally comfortable (which I know is subjective), and why that might be. Is it simply you need to spend a lot on heating (installation and fuel) and maybe secondary heating appliances; which not everyone can, I know I couldn’t whilst living in the terrace house. I also didn’t have much money to undertake any upgrades, even as an owner occupier. Or do other factors come into play that change experiences significantly.

I am clearly a novice at all this, but it is something I am interested in so hopefully should help my write 12,000 words before May!


I have also lived in a 1994 detached house, the heating was on at 16/17 typically during the day, and found that experience pleasant, mainly from the consistency of the heat distribution, I think.

 

[Mattaoe]

I would just like to note in general - I know there are holes in the questionnaire. If everything was on there that I wanted to ask, it would take at least double the time for you to fill out, so in the interest of more people being able to take just 15 minutes from their day to answer it, and me be able to analyse results in circa 4000 words, this is where I landed

If anyone has anything that perhaps they would have focused more on, then I am all ears - I clearly missed things that are important, and that is a flaw of my research

I did want to ask about wall linings, ground floor construction, basements, property size, wall thickness, where radiators are placed in rooms etc etc but not every occupant knows the specification; though there is probably a large portion of people on this forum that do, as you have an interest in your property rather than just live in it. I also wanted to ask: how often you work from home, how active you are, how regularly you open windows, your income, your age, but there would end up being too many questions - I was told that 45 questions was too long.

Ideally I would survey every property and interview occupants about their actions and habits, but I unfortunately don't have the time.

 

[paulc]

I just want to see whether people are generally thermally comfortable (which I know is subjective), and why that might be. Is it simply you need to spend a lot on heating (installation and fuel) and maybe secondary heating appliances; which not everyone can, I know I couldn’t whilst living in the terrace house. I also didn’t have much money to undertake any upgrades, even as an owner occupier. Or do other factors come into play that change experiences significantly.

I have a 1928 3 bed semi built to recommendations set out in the Tudor Walters report of 1918. The house is cavity construction on the lower half, and solid 9" brick on the upper. The wrong side of your 1919 cutoff date...
However, I have done quite a bit of work to improve the thermal performance - Double glazed windows, 300mm+ loft insulation, and insulated some of the solid brick walls. Windows & loft insulation have made a dramatic improvement to the warmth of the place. It is debatable if insulating the walls has made much difference in reducing heat losses. But I can heat the place to 20°C with modest gas consumption, but the thermostat is set at 19°C for most of the time. Also have a wood stove which helps to boost the temperature.

 

[lizziecupcakes]

My house is 1907 edwardian, 3 bed semi detached, medium sized with the tiniest bathroom in the world (1.7m x 1.7m) .

I think the bathroom has always been upstairs (first floor), not sure if that’s odd or not for the period.

I’m happy to fill in the survey. Can you report your findings when it’s all done ? It would be super interesting. I had a thread somewhere in the forum asking people about what internal temperatures they see in their homes which might interest you.

On a very cold day (eg -5 degrees outside), the internal temperature is about 11 degrees if no heating is on all day. I usually get the temp up to 18 degrees if I’m in and only for about an house twice a day.

On a mild day (eg 15 degrees outside), it’s about 17-18 degrees upstairs, but 16 degrees downstairs.

I have found that in very cold days my loft insulation doesn’t feel very effective, I need to heat the house up pretty consistently. In slightly cold days eg 7-10 degrees, I feel the insulation is more effective. This might be down to draughts though where very cold air quickly replaces the heat.

I have also draughty ground floor floorboards which dont help.

I am so jealous of @mardinor because I really suffer when it’s cold even if I wear jumpers. I have been wearing heat tech wear for about 6 months, all thermal wear which helps so much but still, I feel miserable in the cold. I am determined to get the house warmer but keeping it breathable with natural materials. I love this house too much to sell it so will work with it and make it my own with natural methods and hopefully that will keep the house safe to live in too.

 

[malcolm]

Go on then I've filled it in. I went through a change of use on an old building and at one point the Building Regs guy wanted me to spend £10,000 to insulate about 10m2 of wall. I worked out the payback on energy savings would be 1000 years to do it properly. To the Building Regs guy it was just a case of sticking cheap insulation on a damp wall so to him the payback time would be just a few years.

This sort of thing is nuanced. I'm still in a restoration (not renovation) project. Insulating the loft and attic to death has been brilliant and I'm up to modern standards with all that. By getting rid of modern waterproof paint the walls have had a chance to dry and that's also helped enormously. Dry bricks insulate much better than wet bricks and are much better than SAP values which don't differentiate between wet and dry. There were some cheap 1980s windows and they are now double glazed interpretations of what might have been there originally. The original leaded windows are terrible for heat loss. My plan is to secondary glaze but there are some water management things to fix before that happens.

Yes my house is still too cold in the winter. But my energy supplier suggests I use less energy than my neighbours who have more modern houses. It's probably because I am Yorkshire born and brought up in Scotland.

 

[Mattaoe]

I have a 1928 3 bed semi built to recommendations set out in the Tudor Walters report of 1918. The house is cavity construction on the lower half, and solid 9" brick on the upper. The wrong side of your 1919 cutoff date...
However, I have done quite a bit of work to improve the thermal performance - Double glazed windows, 300mm+ loft insulation, and insulated some of the solid brick walls. Windows & loft insulation have made a dramatic improvement to the warmth of the place. It is debatable if insulating the walls has made much difference in reducing heat losses. But I can heat the place to 20°C with modest gas consumption, but the thermostat is set at 19°C for most of the time. Also have a wood stove which helps to boost the temperature.

That is super interesting.

I haven't read anything about that report before, so thanks for sharing.

Re wood stove - From my experience I have almost felt like additional heating appliances, like this are essential, for that extra boost whilst sitting down, though they can cause drafts when they suck the air through, so you need to get the temperature that degree or two higher to accommodate for it. It appears though, that a good portion (9/27) of respondents don't even use any additional heating appliances.

Would be interesting to know if you feel you have achieved thermal comfort with your upgrades.

 

[Mattaoe]

My house is 1907 edwardian, 3 bed semi detached, medium sized with the tiniest bathroom in the world (1.7m x 1.7m) .

I think the bathroom has always been upstairs (first floor), not sure if that’s odd or not for the period.

I’m happy to fill in the survey. Can you report your findings when it’s all done ? It would be super interesting. I had a thread somewhere in the forum asking people about what internal temperatures they see in their homes which might interest you.

On a very cold day (eg -5 degrees outside), the internal temperature is about 11 degrees if no heating is on all day. I usually get the temp up to 18 degrees if I’m in and only for about an house twice a day.

On a mild day (eg 15 degrees outside), it’s about 17-18 degrees upstairs, but 16 degrees downstairs.

I have found that in very cold days my loft insulation doesn’t feel very effective, I need to heat the house up pretty consistently. In slightly cold days eg 7-10 degrees, I feel the insulation is more effective. This might be down to draughts though where very cold air quickly replaces the heat.

I have also draughty ground floor floorboards which dont help.

I am so jealous of @mardinor because I really suffer when it’s cold even if I wear jumpers. I have been wearing heat tech wear for about 6 months, all thermal wear which helps so much but still, I feel miserable in the cold. I am determined to get the house warmer but keeping it breathable with natural materials. I love this house too much to sell it so will work with it and make it my own with natural methods and hopefully that will keep the house safe to live in too.

I think I should be able to share them, but will ask my lecturer. I suppose they are all anonymous, so I don't see why not.

Please do share the thread you mention.

I think your experience was quite similar to mine in the 1905 terrace house. The temperatures are pretty similar. I ended up wearing all sorts of layers and used a heated mouse when working from home (which was pretty good). Although thermally comfortable other than my fingers with the layers on, I became physically uncomfortable with the restricted movement, even though it was ever so slight in the grand scheme of things, I just didn't feel relaxed.

These period houses are so wonderful, and so it would be a massive shame to ruin them. It's just trying to work out what is best for the house, to make it the best for you.

And generally I have found in the summer months, they preform really well, maintaining a nice temperature throughout the day, and never being so uncomfortable that I need to buy a portable AC unit or electric fans like people in modern houses do - as we see by the sky rocket of sales in these items every year!

 

[Mattaoe]

Go on then I've filled it in. I went through a change of use on an old building and at one point the Building Regs guy wanted me to spend £10,000 to insulate about 10m2 of wall. I worked out the payback on energy savings would be 1000 years to do it properly. To the Building Regs guy it was just a case of sticking cheap insulation on a damp wall so to him the payback time would be just a few years.

This sort of thing is nuanced. I'm still in a restoration (not renovation) project. Insulating the loft and attic to death has been brilliant and I'm up to modern standards with all that. By getting rid of modern waterproof paint the walls have had a chance to dry and that's also helped enormously. Dry bricks insulate much better than wet bricks and are much better than SAP values which don't differentiate between wet and dry. There were some cheap 1980s windows and they are now double glazed interpretations of what might have been there originally. The original leaded windows are terrible for heat loss. My plan is to secondary glaze but there are some water management things to fix before that happens.

Yes my house is still too cold in the winter. But my energy supplier suggests I use less energy than my neighbours who have more modern houses. It's probably because I am Yorkshire born and brought up in Scotland.

Thanks for completing it!

What a crazy solution from the BC guy. It seems the payback of the external insulation is super long and just not realistic, so either relies on enough disposable income or government grants, which still aren't great solutions.

There are so many nuanced things about all of this. In the 1905 terrace I was in, the EPC rating was C, but it couldn't even get up to temperature. I really could have left the heating on all night and it would have struggled to get to 18'... which doesn't sound very efficient to me. It seems that the heating system output was insufficient after doing some calcs, but I didn't do them before I bought the place.

Moisture is a big issue, so the dampness of the UK air doesn't help either, I don't think. And as you suggest, these houses have been refurbished with the wrong materials, and seal them all up, which exasperates the issue. There is a lot of modern maintenance and installations for old houses, which doesn't work. We ended up pulling off modern plaster and getting it redone with lime, which helped even just visually not seeing damp on the walls.

I would have liked to look at culture more in the questionnaire... because of our 'mild winters' are we happy to just grin and bear it, as although it is hard, it is not deadly for most of the population. But is that the right attitude to have? Yes there are environmental issues that we need to consider, but should they come before health and well being.

I think this is all a super interesting topic.

 

[paulc]

Re wood stove - From my experience I have almost felt like additional heating appliances, like this are essential, for that extra boost whilst sitting down, though they can cause drafts when they suck the air through, so you need to get the temperature that degree or two higher to accommodate for it. It appears though, that a good portion (9/27) of respondents don't even use any additional heating appliances.

Would be interesting to know if you feel you have achieved thermal comfort with your upgrades.

The stove is a tad overpowered for the room it is in. Recommended size is less than 4kW for the size of room, stove is rated at 7kW. As most properties in the UK only need 6kW to heat the whole house, some days, I don't need the central heating on. On a few occasions, I've recorded temperatures up around 27°C which is a bit too warm...
On the whole, I've achieved thermal comfort without spending huge amounts on energy (£40-50 per month on gas this winter).

 

[Lacan07]

Go on then I've filled it in. I went through a change of use on an old building and at one point the Building Regs guy wanted me to spend £10,000 to insulate about 10m2 of wall. I worked out the payback on energy savings would be 1000 years to do it properly. To the Building Regs guy it was just a case of sticking cheap insulation on a damp wall so to him the payback time would be just a few years.

This sort of thing is nuanced. I'm still in a restoration (not renovation) project. Insulating the loft and attic to death has been brilliant and I'm up to modern standards with all that. By getting rid of modern waterproof paint the walls have had a chance to dry and that's also helped enormously. Dry bricks insulate much better than wet bricks and are much better than SAP values which don't differentiate between wet and dry. There were some cheap 1980s windows and they are now double glazed interpretations of what might have been there originally. The original leaded windows are terrible for heat loss. My plan is to secondary glaze but there are some water management things to fix before that happens.

Yes my house is still too cold in the winter. But my energy supplier suggests I use less energy than my neighbours who have more modern houses. It's probably because I am Yorkshire born and brought up in Scotland.

I think Peter Ward was one of the people who recently drew attention to the merits of a dry brick, especially the soft reds. He claimed a dry soft red has the capability of retaining a certain amount of heat if dry. It's also a bit of a shame we instal modern aluminium flues into our chimneys when installing wood burners, although you can understand why.

 

[CliffordPope]

It's also a bit of a shame we instal modern aluminium flues into our chimneys when installing wood burners, although you can understand why.

Why? Chimneys have burned logs for centuries - what is it about a "wood burner" that needs an aluminium flue?

 

[a twig]

I think Peter Ward was one of the people who recently drew attention to the merits of a dry brick, especially the soft reds. He claimed a dry soft red has the capability of retaining a certain amount of heat if dry. It's also a bit of a shame we instal modern aluminium flues into our chimneys when installing wood burners, although you can understand why.

Hopefully a steel flue rather than aluminium

Aluminium can start to get soft >150’C and gets melty around 650’C which is well within the temperature range of a chimney fire (my steel liner got to 780’C when we had one )

You’ll still get a fair amount of heat radiating from a hot flue, most installers now though want to fill the void around the liner with vermiculite to improve the stove’s efficiency - in our last two places I politely declined the vermiculite for that exact reason, would rather sacrifice some efficiency and have to sweep a bit more regularly to get the heat radiating into the stone / brick and drying out any ingress

 

[a twig]

Why? Chimneys have burned logs for centuries - what is it about a "wood burner" that needs an aluminium flue?

Smoke from stoves usually has a lower velocity as more of the heat goes out into the room rather than straight up the chimney like an open fire does, so in a normal chimney smoke from a stove will cool and deposit soot / tar within the chimney for longer until the entire chimney warms up enough to draw the smoke up and out.

This leads to more staining as tar leaches in through walls and increased risk of chimney fires.

A liner greatly reduces the volume of air that needs to be heated for stoves to achieve a good draw, liners are easier to sweep and in the rare event that you do get a fire will usually keep it all safely contained (speaking from experience here).

Yes you don’t “have to have” one but personally I struggle to see a good reason not to

 

[Lacan07]

Hopefully a steel flue rather than aluminium

You’ll still get a fair amount of heat radiating from a hot flue, most installers now though want to fill the void around the liner with vermiculite to improve the stove’s efficiency - in our last two places I politely declined the vermiculite for that exact reason, would rather sacrifice some efficiency and have to sweep a bit more regularly to get the heat radiating into the stone / brick and drying out any ingress

Ha, sorry, yes steel - too early in the morning for me!

Interesting that this subject has come up as I had BC round the other day who are overseeing my wood burner install (half complete) and he mentioned vermiculite which like you I politely declined for the exact same reasons.

 

[Lacan07]

Why? Chimneys have burned logs for centuries - what is it about a "wood burner" that needs an aluminium flue?

Its more efficient basically, most of the heat from an open fire goes up the chimney and not into the room.

 

[malcolm]

I think Peter Ward was one of the people who recently drew attention to the merits of a dry brick, especially the soft reds. He claimed a dry soft red has the capability of retaining a certain amount of heat if dry. It's also a bit of a shame we instal modern aluminium flues into our chimneys when installing wood burners, although you can understand why.

You can calculate U value backwards if you know the temperature inside and outside and the amount of energy used. I did my own SAP calculation and I couldn't get the energy consumption low enough using 1.8 as the U value for brick. It worked out using a U value of 0.8. I think the book U value is for wet walls. The cement mortar walls in modern houses will be wet but my walls are dry. SPAB published some U value measurements made on old properties and found brick with lime mortar often has a U value below 1.